Post by Lazy Pete on Mar 6, 2017 17:49:58 GMT -6
Bust City
45. Joe Barry Carroll - 3029 - Vancouver Grizzlies.
44. Giannis Antetokounmpo - 3031 - Cleveland Cavaliers.
43. Darrell Floyd - 3021 - Houston Rockets.
42. Kobe Bryant - 3012 - Denver Nuggets. 1x all star
The dregs of the top picks. All of these players were extremely disappointing as rookies and continued to get worse as their careers went along. Joe Barry Carroll is the shining example of the "grades too good" phenomena, as he came into the league with unreal grades and looked good enough for Druce to choose him over perennial all-star Kevin McHale. However, he never developed into a threat on offense and, even more damaging, he was deathly allergic to blocking shots. He bounced around a few teams before washing out the league after 7 or 8 seasons, and that was probably 3-4 seasons too long. Giannis is a superstar in real life but he was a tricky blend of raw potential, wasted SCs aimed to get him PG eligible, and some bad luck with TCs. Giannis peaked as a rotation player for a couple years but never came close to the hype he got entering the league and Shaun missed out on the chance to draft several of the other star players available in a surprisingly strong 2013 draft class.
Darrell Floyd was a suggested addition an older draft class by fellow Furman alum Dilworth, who probably went a little overboard with his grades (sound familiar?) and Floyd never really got beyond replacement level as a point guard. Perhaps most famously, he was relegated to the bench for the Atlanta Hawks for most of the season before Devine finally subbed him in. That delay put the Hawks in position in the standings to jump in the lottery, but the Bullets owned their pick and used it to select Jesus Shuttlesworth. Finally, Kobe managed to eke out an all-star appearance at a time the west was lacking in quality SGs, but spent most of his career in and out of starting lineups and bouncing around various teams without ever fulfilling his promise. Another fun fact, Kobe Bryant was the source of the Odin-RW trade stipulation controversy.
Settling for Solid
41. Shawn Kemp - 3015 - Golden State Warriors. 1x all league, 2x all star
40. Connie Hawkins - 3041 - Los Angeles Clippers.
39. Derrick Rose - 3026 - Oklahoma City Thunder.
38. LaMarcus Aldridge - 3020 - Indiana Pacers. 1x 6MOY, 1x all star
37. John Wall - 3005 - Utah Jazz.
36. Joe Johnson - 3035 - San Antonio Spurs.
35. Juan Keaney - 3014 - Miami Heat. 1x all league
34. Dante Exum - 3027 - Memphis Bobcats. 1 Championship
None of these players lived up to the player they were expected to be, but each carved out a nice role as a starter or sixth man for a lengthy career. Connie Hawkins stands out as another who is too close to call so far, but I'm less enthusiastic about his future development as the next handful of players below. Juan Keaney was an interesting player who was software generated but, due to the overall awfulness of the IRL 2000 draft class, found his way to the top of the Heat draftboard anyway.
Too Soon to Know
33. Markelle Fultz - 3043 - Toronto Raptors. 1x all defense
32. Chris Paul - 3039 - Orlando Magic.
31. Ben Simmons - 3044 - Miami Heat.
These players are all still on the younger side, and the jury is out on just what they'll be. After only 2 seasons, Fultz is among the best defensive guards in the league, and if he can get his turnovers to manageable levels, he's got the potential to be an all-star level contributor. Paul has been a major disappointment and is getting close to an age where he might be written off as a bust, but he's quietly improved the past few seasons enough that his contract doesn't look like the albatross many thought it could be. Simmons is only a year into the league and put together a tremendous offensive season to start out his career. If the rest of his game catches up, there's no doubt he'll fulfill expectations.
Left You Wanting More
30. Bernard King - 3003 - Phoenix Suns.
29. David Robinson - 3012 - Philadelphia 76ers. 1 Championship, 1x DPOY, 1x all league, 3x all star, 6x all defense
28. Michael Jordan - 3004 - Philadelphia 76ers. 1 Championship, 6x all league, 7x all star
These players have all had success throughout their careers, but ultimately it feels like they were disappointments. Bernard King put up an absurd 35 PPG during his rookie season before he got injured, and that was the pinnacle of his career. He continued to be a valuable starter and then rotation guy for his career but never got back to those heights. The Admiral inspired Fason to go on one of the biggest tanking runs in league history, and the Sixers won a title shortly after he joined the roster, but he never could get his offense to the level most expected and ultimately he became a defensive presence and not much else. And then there is his Airness, the GOAT, the Jumpman himself. He (and the rest of that stacked '84 class) inspired the greatest tankathon we've ever seen, and spent most of his career as a dynamic scorer. But choosing to spend his prime in dead ends like Golden State and Atlanta made his numbers seem like empty calories, and if it weren't for the coattails of Aaron Harrison and co., he might never have even seen a finals.
Depends on the Day
27. Dominique Wilkins - 3033 - Golden State Warriors. 1 Championship, 1x all league, 1x all star, 5x all defense
26. Gary Payton - 3007 - Toronto Raptors. 2x all league, 2x all star, 3x all defense
25. Dirk Nowitzki - 3040 - Golden State Warriors. 2x all star
24. Dwight Howard - 3006 - Brooklyn Nets. 2x all star, 2x all defense
23. Anthony Davis - 3038 - Los Angeles Clippers. 1 Championship, 1x DPOY, 5x all league, 4x all star, 5x all defense
It's hard to sort these players and I went back and forth on most of the players in this range several times. Ultimately, I settled on this order, but I'm still not happy about it. Nique only consistently provided one skill, but when that one skill is providing wing defense the way he does, that's enough to bump up the list a lot. Gary Payton took a little while to bloom and gets a bit of a short shrift in the annals of history because of his sixth man status for the Suns, but he could've made a much bigger splash if he'd gotten a chance to run the show on another team. Dirk is still growing into the player we all hoped he could be, but the early returns are very positive for the big German. Dwight bounced around to a few different places but due to the skillful teambuilding of GM RV he really put together some killer seasons over the 2nd half of his career in Charlotte. Davis is probably too low by my own admission, but I docked his all-star and all league appearances a little because he got most of them listed at PF over the likes of Xavier McDaniel and Draymond Green.
Great, but Flawed
22. Jahlil Okafor - 3013 - Golden State Warriors. 1 Championship, 2x all league, 4x all star, 1x all defense
21. Grant Hill - 3002 - Los Angeles Lakers. 3x all league, 3x all star
20. Kevin Durant - 3011 - Indiana Pacers. 2x all star
These three players stuck out to me as notable stars of their eras who all had a slight flaw in their game that held them back from some high expectations. Okafor went first in an ultra-talented class and proved to be a valuable big throughout his career, partnering with Jermaine O'Neal to deliver Phoenix its title in the mid-20s. However, looking back at his career numbers, his offense was only slightly better than your normal "shoots too much" big. He was built like a two-way player but was mostly a negative on offense. Grant Hill has probably the most infamous achilles heel in league history, and his comically bad turnover numbers make it hard to remember any of the other qualities that made him worth all the trouble. He was a dominant offensive weapon and if his handles had been subpar instead of comically bad, he would be one of the greats. Durant was another frustrating player whose weakness sems to have been a lack of positional identity for most of his career. In today's league, he would've started and remained at SF, but when he was in the league there were a lot of conflicting opinions about whether he should play SF or PF. Ultimately he was very good but not great at both positions.
Perenniel All-Stars
19. Stephen Curry - 3017 - Portland Trailblazers. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 1x all league, 1x all star
18. LeBron James - 3042 - Kansas City Kings. 1x all league, 1x all star, 2x all defense
17. Chris Webber - 3030 - Toronto Raptors. 5x all league, 10x all star
16. Larry Johnson - 3023 - Kansas City Kings. 3x all league, 2x all star
15. Julius Erving - 3000 - Milwaukee Bucks. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 5x all league, 4x all star, 2x all defense
14. Benji Wilson - 3024 - Cleveland Cavaliers. 6x all league, 8x all star, 8x all defense
13. Bob Cousy - 3022 - Indiana Pacers. 1x MVP, 2x all league, 2x all star
These players were all among the best of their position during their career. LeBron James ranks here despite only being a few seasons into his career but I expect he will finish his career much higher. I debated whether or not to include Dr. J in the rankings at all, since he was the first player selected in the creation draft, but ultimately decided that the brevity of his career made up for the fact that he was more of a finished product than you'd expect for a rookie. Bob Cousy had a pretty odd career, as he is the only member of the list outside of the top 4 who won the league MVP, but besides his MVP campaign he only made one other all star game or all league team.
First Ballot HOFers
12. Ronald Savage - 3018 - San Antonio Spurs. 2 Championships, 7x all league, 9x all star
11. Frank Selvy - 3016 - Miami Heat. 11x all league, 10x all star, 2x all defense
10. Clyde Drexler - 3009 - Boston Celtics. 1 Championship, 7x all league, 9x all star
9. Elgin Baylor - 3034 - Portland Trailblazers. 1 Championship, 2x all league, 5x all star, 3x all defense
8. Kevin Garnett - 3019 - Cleveland Cavaliers. 2 Championships, 1 Playoff MVP, 10x all league, 10x all star
7. Larry Bird - 3036 - Boston Celtics. 5 Championships, 3x Playoff MVP, 6x all league, 6x all star
6. Patrick Ewing - 3037 - Houston Rockets. 3x DPOY, 6x all league, 6x all star, 4x all defense
5. Jesus Shuttlesworth - 3028 - Washington Bullets. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 13x all league, 11x all star
Each of these players had a remarkable career, making multiple all-league teams and for the most part carrying teams to titles or close to them. Patrick Ewing and Larry Bird both have a chance to leap into the next category if they finish their careers strongly. It's also worth noting that a majority of the players that make up this category are perimeter players, with KG and Ewing earning their way to the list thanks to years of sustained excellence on both sides of the ball. There are only a few bigs in league history who've strung together seasons as strong as Ewing and KG produced year after year.
The Best of the Best
4. Oscar Robertson - 3008 - Chicago Bulls. 6x MVP, 10x all league, 13x all star, 2x all defense
3. Jimmy Jackson - 3032 - Chicago Bulls. 5 Championships, 1x MVP, 7x all league, 9x all star
2. Kyrie Irving - 3025 - Washington Bullets. 1 Championship, 6x MVP, 10x all league, 11x all star, 15x all defense
1. Magic Johnson - 3001 - Los Angeles Clippers. 1 Championship, 6x MVP, 1x Playoff MVP, 14x all league, 15x all star, 3x all defense
The rarest of the rare, there was no doubt from day 1 that all of these players were going to be among the best to ever play in the league. Each of these four has one at least one MVP award and, except for Oscar, led their teams to at least one championship. Oscar's game 7 woes are the stuff of legend, but he dominated the league during the teens, winning 6 MVPs in 7 seasons. Jimmy Jackson was a lock to be a stud from the minute Soup posted his profile, and he has not disappointed. He's still rolling along at the ripe old age of 35, helping secure the first Knicks title of 4.0 only a few years after leading the Celtics to a whopping 4 straight. He has an obscene 34.5 PPG average for his CAREER, a record that will probably never fall when he decides to hang it up. Kyrie dominated on both sides of the ball throughout his career, and won six straight MVP awards leading the Bullets during the early 30s. Magic is to me the best player we've ever had in the league, someone who filled up literally every statistical category and the only player to average a triple-double in any iteration of this league (as far as I'm aware). He did so twice. It's amazing, however, that with all of these accolades, Magic is the only one who won playoff MVP, and Jimmy Jackson is the only one to win more than 1 title.
45. Joe Barry Carroll - 3029 - Vancouver Grizzlies.
44. Giannis Antetokounmpo - 3031 - Cleveland Cavaliers.
43. Darrell Floyd - 3021 - Houston Rockets.
42. Kobe Bryant - 3012 - Denver Nuggets. 1x all star
The dregs of the top picks. All of these players were extremely disappointing as rookies and continued to get worse as their careers went along. Joe Barry Carroll is the shining example of the "grades too good" phenomena, as he came into the league with unreal grades and looked good enough for Druce to choose him over perennial all-star Kevin McHale. However, he never developed into a threat on offense and, even more damaging, he was deathly allergic to blocking shots. He bounced around a few teams before washing out the league after 7 or 8 seasons, and that was probably 3-4 seasons too long. Giannis is a superstar in real life but he was a tricky blend of raw potential, wasted SCs aimed to get him PG eligible, and some bad luck with TCs. Giannis peaked as a rotation player for a couple years but never came close to the hype he got entering the league and Shaun missed out on the chance to draft several of the other star players available in a surprisingly strong 2013 draft class.
Darrell Floyd was a suggested addition an older draft class by fellow Furman alum Dilworth, who probably went a little overboard with his grades (sound familiar?) and Floyd never really got beyond replacement level as a point guard. Perhaps most famously, he was relegated to the bench for the Atlanta Hawks for most of the season before Devine finally subbed him in. That delay put the Hawks in position in the standings to jump in the lottery, but the Bullets owned their pick and used it to select Jesus Shuttlesworth. Finally, Kobe managed to eke out an all-star appearance at a time the west was lacking in quality SGs, but spent most of his career in and out of starting lineups and bouncing around various teams without ever fulfilling his promise. Another fun fact, Kobe Bryant was the source of the Odin-RW trade stipulation controversy.
Settling for Solid
41. Shawn Kemp - 3015 - Golden State Warriors. 1x all league, 2x all star
40. Connie Hawkins - 3041 - Los Angeles Clippers.
39. Derrick Rose - 3026 - Oklahoma City Thunder.
38. LaMarcus Aldridge - 3020 - Indiana Pacers. 1x 6MOY, 1x all star
37. John Wall - 3005 - Utah Jazz.
36. Joe Johnson - 3035 - San Antonio Spurs.
35. Juan Keaney - 3014 - Miami Heat. 1x all league
34. Dante Exum - 3027 - Memphis Bobcats. 1 Championship
None of these players lived up to the player they were expected to be, but each carved out a nice role as a starter or sixth man for a lengthy career. Connie Hawkins stands out as another who is too close to call so far, but I'm less enthusiastic about his future development as the next handful of players below. Juan Keaney was an interesting player who was software generated but, due to the overall awfulness of the IRL 2000 draft class, found his way to the top of the Heat draftboard anyway.
Too Soon to Know
33. Markelle Fultz - 3043 - Toronto Raptors. 1x all defense
32. Chris Paul - 3039 - Orlando Magic.
31. Ben Simmons - 3044 - Miami Heat.
These players are all still on the younger side, and the jury is out on just what they'll be. After only 2 seasons, Fultz is among the best defensive guards in the league, and if he can get his turnovers to manageable levels, he's got the potential to be an all-star level contributor. Paul has been a major disappointment and is getting close to an age where he might be written off as a bust, but he's quietly improved the past few seasons enough that his contract doesn't look like the albatross many thought it could be. Simmons is only a year into the league and put together a tremendous offensive season to start out his career. If the rest of his game catches up, there's no doubt he'll fulfill expectations.
Left You Wanting More
30. Bernard King - 3003 - Phoenix Suns.
29. David Robinson - 3012 - Philadelphia 76ers. 1 Championship, 1x DPOY, 1x all league, 3x all star, 6x all defense
28. Michael Jordan - 3004 - Philadelphia 76ers. 1 Championship, 6x all league, 7x all star
These players have all had success throughout their careers, but ultimately it feels like they were disappointments. Bernard King put up an absurd 35 PPG during his rookie season before he got injured, and that was the pinnacle of his career. He continued to be a valuable starter and then rotation guy for his career but never got back to those heights. The Admiral inspired Fason to go on one of the biggest tanking runs in league history, and the Sixers won a title shortly after he joined the roster, but he never could get his offense to the level most expected and ultimately he became a defensive presence and not much else. And then there is his Airness, the GOAT, the Jumpman himself. He (and the rest of that stacked '84 class) inspired the greatest tankathon we've ever seen, and spent most of his career as a dynamic scorer. But choosing to spend his prime in dead ends like Golden State and Atlanta made his numbers seem like empty calories, and if it weren't for the coattails of Aaron Harrison and co., he might never have even seen a finals.
Depends on the Day
27. Dominique Wilkins - 3033 - Golden State Warriors. 1 Championship, 1x all league, 1x all star, 5x all defense
26. Gary Payton - 3007 - Toronto Raptors. 2x all league, 2x all star, 3x all defense
25. Dirk Nowitzki - 3040 - Golden State Warriors. 2x all star
24. Dwight Howard - 3006 - Brooklyn Nets. 2x all star, 2x all defense
23. Anthony Davis - 3038 - Los Angeles Clippers. 1 Championship, 1x DPOY, 5x all league, 4x all star, 5x all defense
It's hard to sort these players and I went back and forth on most of the players in this range several times. Ultimately, I settled on this order, but I'm still not happy about it. Nique only consistently provided one skill, but when that one skill is providing wing defense the way he does, that's enough to bump up the list a lot. Gary Payton took a little while to bloom and gets a bit of a short shrift in the annals of history because of his sixth man status for the Suns, but he could've made a much bigger splash if he'd gotten a chance to run the show on another team. Dirk is still growing into the player we all hoped he could be, but the early returns are very positive for the big German. Dwight bounced around to a few different places but due to the skillful teambuilding of GM RV he really put together some killer seasons over the 2nd half of his career in Charlotte. Davis is probably too low by my own admission, but I docked his all-star and all league appearances a little because he got most of them listed at PF over the likes of Xavier McDaniel and Draymond Green.
Great, but Flawed
22. Jahlil Okafor - 3013 - Golden State Warriors. 1 Championship, 2x all league, 4x all star, 1x all defense
21. Grant Hill - 3002 - Los Angeles Lakers. 3x all league, 3x all star
20. Kevin Durant - 3011 - Indiana Pacers. 2x all star
These three players stuck out to me as notable stars of their eras who all had a slight flaw in their game that held them back from some high expectations. Okafor went first in an ultra-talented class and proved to be a valuable big throughout his career, partnering with Jermaine O'Neal to deliver Phoenix its title in the mid-20s. However, looking back at his career numbers, his offense was only slightly better than your normal "shoots too much" big. He was built like a two-way player but was mostly a negative on offense. Grant Hill has probably the most infamous achilles heel in league history, and his comically bad turnover numbers make it hard to remember any of the other qualities that made him worth all the trouble. He was a dominant offensive weapon and if his handles had been subpar instead of comically bad, he would be one of the greats. Durant was another frustrating player whose weakness sems to have been a lack of positional identity for most of his career. In today's league, he would've started and remained at SF, but when he was in the league there were a lot of conflicting opinions about whether he should play SF or PF. Ultimately he was very good but not great at both positions.
Perenniel All-Stars
19. Stephen Curry - 3017 - Portland Trailblazers. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 1x all league, 1x all star
18. LeBron James - 3042 - Kansas City Kings. 1x all league, 1x all star, 2x all defense
17. Chris Webber - 3030 - Toronto Raptors. 5x all league, 10x all star
16. Larry Johnson - 3023 - Kansas City Kings. 3x all league, 2x all star
15. Julius Erving - 3000 - Milwaukee Bucks. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 5x all league, 4x all star, 2x all defense
14. Benji Wilson - 3024 - Cleveland Cavaliers. 6x all league, 8x all star, 8x all defense
13. Bob Cousy - 3022 - Indiana Pacers. 1x MVP, 2x all league, 2x all star
These players were all among the best of their position during their career. LeBron James ranks here despite only being a few seasons into his career but I expect he will finish his career much higher. I debated whether or not to include Dr. J in the rankings at all, since he was the first player selected in the creation draft, but ultimately decided that the brevity of his career made up for the fact that he was more of a finished product than you'd expect for a rookie. Bob Cousy had a pretty odd career, as he is the only member of the list outside of the top 4 who won the league MVP, but besides his MVP campaign he only made one other all star game or all league team.
First Ballot HOFers
12. Ronald Savage - 3018 - San Antonio Spurs. 2 Championships, 7x all league, 9x all star
11. Frank Selvy - 3016 - Miami Heat. 11x all league, 10x all star, 2x all defense
10. Clyde Drexler - 3009 - Boston Celtics. 1 Championship, 7x all league, 9x all star
9. Elgin Baylor - 3034 - Portland Trailblazers. 1 Championship, 2x all league, 5x all star, 3x all defense
8. Kevin Garnett - 3019 - Cleveland Cavaliers. 2 Championships, 1 Playoff MVP, 10x all league, 10x all star
7. Larry Bird - 3036 - Boston Celtics. 5 Championships, 3x Playoff MVP, 6x all league, 6x all star
6. Patrick Ewing - 3037 - Houston Rockets. 3x DPOY, 6x all league, 6x all star, 4x all defense
5. Jesus Shuttlesworth - 3028 - Washington Bullets. 1 Championship, 1x Playoff MVP, 13x all league, 11x all star
Each of these players had a remarkable career, making multiple all-league teams and for the most part carrying teams to titles or close to them. Patrick Ewing and Larry Bird both have a chance to leap into the next category if they finish their careers strongly. It's also worth noting that a majority of the players that make up this category are perimeter players, with KG and Ewing earning their way to the list thanks to years of sustained excellence on both sides of the ball. There are only a few bigs in league history who've strung together seasons as strong as Ewing and KG produced year after year.
The Best of the Best
4. Oscar Robertson - 3008 - Chicago Bulls. 6x MVP, 10x all league, 13x all star, 2x all defense
3. Jimmy Jackson - 3032 - Chicago Bulls. 5 Championships, 1x MVP, 7x all league, 9x all star
2. Kyrie Irving - 3025 - Washington Bullets. 1 Championship, 6x MVP, 10x all league, 11x all star, 15x all defense
1. Magic Johnson - 3001 - Los Angeles Clippers. 1 Championship, 6x MVP, 1x Playoff MVP, 14x all league, 15x all star, 3x all defense
The rarest of the rare, there was no doubt from day 1 that all of these players were going to be among the best to ever play in the league. Each of these four has one at least one MVP award and, except for Oscar, led their teams to at least one championship. Oscar's game 7 woes are the stuff of legend, but he dominated the league during the teens, winning 6 MVPs in 7 seasons. Jimmy Jackson was a lock to be a stud from the minute Soup posted his profile, and he has not disappointed. He's still rolling along at the ripe old age of 35, helping secure the first Knicks title of 4.0 only a few years after leading the Celtics to a whopping 4 straight. He has an obscene 34.5 PPG average for his CAREER, a record that will probably never fall when he decides to hang it up. Kyrie dominated on both sides of the ball throughout his career, and won six straight MVP awards leading the Bullets during the early 30s. Magic is to me the best player we've ever had in the league, someone who filled up literally every statistical category and the only player to average a triple-double in any iteration of this league (as far as I'm aware). He did so twice. It's amazing, however, that with all of these accolades, Magic is the only one who won playoff MVP, and Jimmy Jackson is the only one to win more than 1 title.
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