Post by Druce on Jun 23, 2015 15:41:06 GMT -6
In this RT, we discuss strategies and feelings on the league. I tried to get a range of GMs skill wise to see if there was a lot of difference between the ranks.
1. What is the biggest mistake new people make in the league? What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made?
20s: Not being patient enough and trading off their biggest assets before they really understand value and how the league works. However, this is tough to stay away from as you want to jump in and start making moves and making the team your own. That is part of the fun of the league. The biggest mistake I have made in 4.0 is probably the Catfish deal. I was coming off of losing Monroe and Champ the free agency before after trying to save a little money on their offers and I had traded Oden in the deal that Catfish came back in. When Catfish hit free agency, I told myself there was no way I was going to lose him by leaving any money on the table. If he left, it was going to be due to the software. So I was probably on a little bit of tilt and worried about losing almost my entire team in back to back free agency periods. It is definitely the worst move I have made, but it hasn't really hurt me as much as I thought it would or could have. I have still managed to have pretty successful teams and I haven't been limited too much in the moves I can make. Now, it could still impact me more down the line if he doesn't retire soon.
Pete: By far the biggest issue when new GMs join the league is not asking for help. No matter what, it's going to take some time to adjust to the grade/rating system and figure out how to properly value players. The more successful new GMs that I've seen (GBG, Heebs, SPL) have not been shy about asking lots of questions and running things by other GMs or the commish early on. My biggest mistake was from a similar refusal to seek guidance. I decided I wanted to tear down the Raptors team I inherited, but didn't run the Moncrief offers I was getting by anyone else. As a result, I accepted a deal that was really shitty and set my team back years. If I had consulted someone, they would've helped me figure out what the best offer really was, or even told me how stupid it was to tear things down considering my pick the next season had already been traded.
Canes: The biggest mistake new GM's make is thinking they have it figured out after a season or 2. It happens with almost every new GM with GBG seeming to be the only exception, where a GM will get absolutely raped by a vet in a trade that sets the vet up for the next 5+ seasons and sets the new GM back the same amount of time. When other GM's tell you to run big trades by another vet GM, DO IT. When the vet tells you that you are making a bad deal, DON'T DO THE TRADE. You don't know more than him, you don't know what you are doing, and you are about to get taken advantage of. The biggest mistake I made as a new GM was way back in 2.0 when I gave up a ton for Marvin Williams and got completely taken advantage of by Trofie. Recently, it was holding onto Reggie King way too long. Insert 2poor being a cunt about Selvy4Oscar
2poor: Not getting at least 3 separate mentors to run literally everything they do by. Vic should have been running his goddamn casino bets by somebody when he started, and he was making moves without consulting anyone. Doing the exact same thing when I started is the biggest mistake I've made. (Naulls to dirt, Gordon to trofie, Steve Mix to... I don't remember who I gifted him to).
Druce: I think the worst mistake, like everyone else has said, is not asking for help when you first start. People come in and look at the league and figure “how hard can this be” when in reality there are a lot of intricacies that a lot of us who’ve been around for a while know and can help with. Heebs did a really good job of this at the beginning, and now he’s one of the more successful GMs we have. I’ve made a couple really big mistakes, one was the Lance trade, which at the end of the day ended up kinda working out a little bit with the return I got for Lovelette and Bol, and the other being the Okafor/Catfish for Bol/Hakeem swap. I was scared of Catfish leaving in FA which is what prompted the moves, but in retrospect they were both awful trades.
2. What is your strategy when it comes to offering free agents? Players you have birds on but aren’t max players?
20s: I don't know how to explain my strategy that much besides trying to bid the amounts that I think will get me the players without having to overpay. By experiencing enough free agency periods, you start to learn what it seems like players like in free agency and you can give yourself a little bit of an advantage by using some of the tricks you pick up. Recently, I declined Lance Stephenson's 5 year resigning offer that would have paid him over 20 million per season and resigned him to a 7 year deal at a flat 18 million per. I don't expect him to play out the contract so the years were really no big deal to me, I just wanted to give myself more space by only paying 18 a season.
Pete: It's been a while since I've had some serious cap room to play with, but I think it's always good to keep an eye on some of the back up guys or guys who blew up in rookie TC but end up buried on a depth chart. A lot of times, people won't take notice or forget about that, and they could turn out to be cheap starters. If I have faith in a guy, I'll go as many as 3 or 4 seasons, but usually I stick to short contracts if they are question marks. For my own guys, I hope to pick up some info in shout or through trade discussions that gives me a hint at what other people value them at. Otherwise, I just try not to get caught overvaluing my own guys.
Canes: If you want to make sure you keep a guy, overpay him. Don't give a max if the guy doesn't deserve it. More often than not, you are better off losing a guy in FA than giving a max he doesn't deserve and can't get bought out. (I should listen to this last one more) Don't fall in love with your own players. Going on tilt if you lose a guy you liked in FA can only lead to bad things (KAT trade).
2poor: I always offer the highest dollar amount I can stomach the thought of paying that person. I don't ever try to be clever on the free agent market.
Druce: I like to try and find guys who didn’t get used to their potential by their previous GM, guys who have good %’s but just kinda floundered on the bench and go after them, I also do this when looking at trades. I also like to come in a bit above MLE for guys who I like if I have cap space for and they aren’t max guys. It’s been a while since I’ve gone after non-max/mle guys so I think I’ve lost touch a bit of what the FA market is.
3. How do you like to approach trade negotiations? Are there people whose pm’s you don’t even bother opening?
20s: I approach trade negotiations with the intent to get a deal done. I don't like to dance around the topic or play a cat and mouse game trying to outwit the other GM. I also feel no need to wring the other GM dry of the most they are willing to give up. That may be a weakness as a GM, but I just approach trades with the intent of getting a deal I like and gets what I am trying to accomplish done, not trying to "win" the trade.
Pete: I try to come strong with my initial offer. I hate it when someone offers me a trade that is comically one sided or makes no sense for me, so I always try to approach it by offering what I consider a good deal for both sides. Sometimes that leads to bad trades for me, like the Andrew Harrison for 1.6 deal, but I can live with that. I open any trade PM i get, but there are a few I haven't bothered to respond to. Most of the time, I will just send back a "no thanks" if I find the offer is way off base.
Canes: Insert a bunch of annoying comments about how I suck to deal with in trades. blah, blah, blah. I try to be fair. I know I overvalue my own guys, but despite the bitching from certain GM's, I have gotten a lot easier to deal with in trades. my last few have been extremely painless. I don't ignore any GM's offers despite reputation/personal feelings/etc. I negotiate with everyone in good faith. There are plenty who don't want to deal with me and that is up to them. I don't hold it against them unless they completely stonewall me then immediately run to shout and bitch about how hard I am to deal with. (Looking at you heebs)
2poor: Unless the GM I'm sending a message to is brand new, I try to go in with a deal that I think has a reasonable chance of being accepted. If I have ever gone in with an offer the other person thought was insultingly low, then I misread the market. Going in with a canes offer just wastes everyone's time. I open and respond to every trade offer I get, just getting silence in return is probably my biggest pet peeve in the league.
Druce: I try to probe and see what the market is most of the time, some people I will low ball at first to see what they say, others I’ll come strong the first time, it’s really all about who I’m talking trade with. How some guys get others to accept trades I’ll never understand, but I’m sure persistence is part of it. I’m never insulted by bad offers because you can’t really blame someone for trying I guess.
4. What do you draft based on? How do you compare players at the same position?
20s: I used to draft strictly based on starting grades (including potential). I have morphed my drafting philosophy over the years and still continue to do so. I now lean more heavily towards the actual starting grades over potential and am much more likely to take a B or C potential guy early. I also try to consider how the commish will treat a player in my evaluation. Finally, I also consider the type of player and what their build will be and how that likely factors into their grades. I also generally draft BPA over need, but there are exceptions. I lean towards drafting PG/wings over bigs as well but there are times when you have to take the big (Joe Smith at 1.2).
For players at the same position, it is just a head to head comparison of all the categories I just mentioned.
Pete: I don't have any official draft system. I usually try to take BPA, ignoring team needs for the most part. I also favor perimeter players over bigs if I think they're relatively equal prospects. At the same position, I will usually look at the key grades first, then their height and weight, then potential. If all else is equal, or sometimes just on gut, I'll draft by external factors like weird names or guys that I think the commish will boost. That worked pretty well in the Odin era, but hasn't served me as well in the Soup era.
Canes: I try to draft BPA first, and need 2nd if two guys are pretty even. Once you have your core 7, you are just hoping to get lucky on a guy who becomes better than a starter you already have, or becomes a valuable trade piece. Grades I try to avoid. C inside for pretty much any position (unless I am drafting a defense first big), B- inside for a big, pretty much guarantees his offensive game will never develop to a high level and that he will shoot too much at a bad percentage if he is a defense first type player.
2poor: I completely ignore potential and look at the other grades. I still let the player's real life career influence me a little more than I probably should, and I tend to go with fit over BPA more than I should. Larry Nance over Blackman could come back to hurt me because of that. During the Hoops Summit era I 100% drafted Spoelstra because of how he did in that game. I miss the Hoops Summit.
Druce: I think it’s pretty well known at this point that I give little to no consideration to potential. I wish I knew more about what goes into certain grades behind the scenes so I could make a better determination on who is truly worthless. There are certain grades I look for for certain positions, and in the 2nd round I like taking fliers on guys with interesting grade sets. I just try to make it less of a gamble than what it already is, but at the end of the day none of us can read the commish’s mind as far as potential goes etc.
5. What is the best strategy to use when re-building?
20s: If you have any young studs, I think it is often best to rebuild while keeping them on your roster. We have seen the scorched earth tank work out for some (eg 76ers) but fail for many others. I don't think people truly consider their lotto odds when going into a scorched earth style tank. You have to be prepared to rebuild with 3-6th pick guys if that is the case. Getting 1.1 requires luck. Lately, I have tried to rebuild on the fly by trading pieces of a successful team for other assets that can keep it going. I just don't like tanking so I am not planning on doing it any time soon.
Pete: I'm a proponent of the half-tank rather than going full scorched-earth. If you've got a star-caliber player, you're better served just hanging onto them and picking in the back half of the lotto than trading them with the hopes that you'll find a good replacement with a top pick. But if your core is aging, don't hold onto them too long. Be serious with yourself about your teams chances and shuffle or clear the deck before your guys are too old and unmovable.
Canes: Best strategy is to know when to blow it up. If you wait too long, all you end up with is a bunch of scraps nobody wants and you are starting over with your firsts and a couple crappy 1sts spread out over the next few seasons. Know when your title window is closed (or never going to open) and get value while you still can and set yourself up for the future. As for drafting, wait as long as possible to get a PG. hitting on a PG assures that your tank has at most one year left in it. Unless you get a guy like Curry, having a decent PG is going to do more harm than good in the long run because he is going to cost you 3-6 draft spots almost immediately.
2poor: Rebuilding sucks, don't do it ever. I've always gone scorched earth tank because in general I lack creativity when it comes to the trade market.
Druce: If you have a legit star who isn’t a point guard, don’t get rid of them just because they’ll win you a few extra games. Most of the time first odds doesn’t get the first pick anyways, and you’ll spend your tank trying to find the player you just gave up. I usually don’t trade my own picks so that makes it easier to rebuild at the drop of a hat as well. I don’t like the idea of going scorched earth, but sometimes it can’t be avoided, and sometimes there isn’t anything really worth keeping.
6. What would you like to see more of, whether it be upgrade ideas, or ideas for the league in general?
20s: I have posted a couple upgrade ideas in the thread before. One of them being sending a player overseas for "blood spinning treatment" or something similar where if you have an old guy who decreases in TC, you can pay to have him restored to his pre-TC grades. The second idea I had was buying insurance on your players. This would cost a nominal fee (say $1,000 per player per season) and if a player that you have insurance on misses more than say 30 games due to injury, you collect on your insurance policy (are paid $5,000 dump bucks or something).
Pete: It's a pretty big undertaking for the commissioner, but I would love to see something like the Clash of the Classes again. I really enjoyed seeing how certain guys performed and whether classes really are as strong/weak as we think.
Canes: I wish the Nike Combine would return. It made drafting a little more strategic than the draft and pray system we have now.
2poor: #wheel
Druce: I really like 20s ideas, and the combine would be cool to come back, but it can also fuck people if a guy has a fluke really good game. I think scouting coming back would be cool but I also understand the time it takes being a large deterring factor. I think it’d be cool if you could buy a like +8 to be split between two guys, or even the same player and limit it to once per career. The +8 would be split between two categories with the max being 5 on one. Or maybe buying an additional TC where you pick 3 categories and you get randomly generated 3 outcomes out of a possible say 10 including some negative.
7. How do you feel about everything being converted to dumpbucks?
20s: I thought it was great originally and I still do. It makes much more sense. We should never go back.
Pete: I like the dumpbuck system. For a while, I was worried because it seemed like the new system was discouraging people from writing articles, but in the past season or two we've seen a good uptick in activity. I think those just tend to happen in waves sometimes.
Canes: Converting everything to dumpbucks was such a simple but perfect change that should have been done as soon as the casino system started. One thing that hasn't happened yet is that articles are not being graded with the mindset that giving someone 3k for a mediocre article isn't a complete waste of the writer's time like giving them 3 points was.
2poor: I am an enormous fan of this change, I think it was a stroke of genius. It really has streamlined a lot of the way the league operates. I'm still hesitant about the league economy being in the hands of dump, but so far it has been a really tremendous improvement.
Druce: I think it was a fantastic idea and I’d also like to take partial credit considering it was part of my initial pitch for the casino back in 2.0 that was met with resounding opposition.
8. Do you have any hard rules for yourself that you don’t break, i.e. never trade a pick past x years out, never draft a guy with x grade in x category?
20s: Not really. The only thing I try not to do is overreact to any small sample such as a first sim, one season's playoffs, etc.
Pete: I have a few guidelines, but not really any set rules. I am a firm believer that you should use every opportunity to upgrade players each season, even if they don't fit into your vision longterm. I can understand someone who doesn't write articles wants to wait until they have a keeper, but it would frustrate me to no end to leave points on the table each season. Also, I am a huge proponent of established players over draft picks when trying to work trades. There are exceptions, but for the most part the person receiving the established guy ends up with the better end of the deal.
Canes: I don't have any hard rules other than don't let myself get baited into doing something dumb by the people who like to troll in shout.
2poor: Well, until this current rebuild I lived by the "don't invest big resources in your frontcourt, just get oodles of perimeter talent" rule, but now look at my team. So I guess I have no longer have any actual rules.
Druce: I have a few grades I won’t draft, I also won’t trade my own picks more than a couple years out. Another thing I won’t do is give help to someone who has denied me the same courtesy in the past, i.e. I asked someone to take on a guy when they were fully capable of doing so for cap reasons, if they were to ask me to do the same at a later date then I won’t be doing so.
9. Is there anything that annoys you about how the league operates?
20s: I wish that there were cap holds that applied if you had a guy who was in the free agent pool so teams weren't able to use their "cap space" to sign other team's FAs before bringing back their own guys after. That is how it operates in real life and I think it is a little more fair, but I realize that is not a possibility with this software so it won't happen and that is fine. Since we must play the cards we are dealt, I am going to take advantage of that loophole if I can. For example, last offseason by not accepting Lance or Gottfried's resigning offers after trading Marbury, I had about 9.2 million in cap space going into Day 1/2 of FA. I offered Chris Duhon almost all of that cap space on a 3 year deal in order to try to entice him to sign early (and hopefully before Lance or Gottfried accepted my offers). Luckily, it worked out for me and I was able to sign Duhon with my cap space and then resign Lance and Gottfried due to bird rights all in the first day of FA.
Pete: I'm pretty happy with how everything operates. Soup has done a great job of keeping a consistent schedule and has really been on top of things. Honestly, things have been running pretty smoothly for a while, so we're probably overdue for some controversy.
Canes: Other than that some GM's feel the need to be cunty about absolutely everything in shout/ in threads, TMBSL is a pretty well run place. The trolling game is beyond played out and is something I wish some posters had grown out of by the time they graduated undergrad.
2poor: I'm annoyed that we don't have hard and fast rules to protect people who are new to the league. Things like the Moncrief deal and the Westphal deal just shouldn't happen. Those GMs had no idea what the fuck they were doing at the time. I don't think the welcome to the league trade rape is something that we actually should be cool with.
Druce: I agree with 20s on the cap holds, but that would be hard to integrate. I really like the consistency of soup and his availability. The only thing I would like to see is some kind of reform in regards to the draft and the time it takes between picks. I know we’ve gotten a lot quicker with it, but I think people should be penalized for not sending in lists when they know good and well when the draft is happening. I understand trying to trade, but be prepared and work out deals before hand. There are very few situations where you can’t work out a deal if a certain player is available and text soup that you agree worst case scenario.
10. How long did it take you to really “catch on” to the way things are in the league?
20s: I joined at the inception of the league so I was learning right alongside everyone else so I was never at a disadvantage. Probably all of 1.0 to really pick everything up. The time I felt the most clueless was when I joined 4.0 after three seasons had already occurred and I had no idea about some of the rules and players in the league. That was a quick learning curve though, less than one sim season.
Pete: It took me a few seasons and a lot of screw ups before I got my feet under me. Each mistake was a valuable lesson, and each stage of my initial teardown/rebuild taught me different things. I think it was around four seasons before I fully grasped what I was doing. The rest of the league (shout, articles, etc.) I was able to pick up pretty quickly, so that was a big help as well.
Canes: It took a full tank and rebuild to finally figure it out. so 5+ seasons.
2poor: I think it took me at least 4 seasons to fully comprehend how everything works. Around the time I got Magic in 2.0 is when things started really clicking.
Druce: It took me quite a while honestly to figure out the inner workings of grades etc. It helped to be around when ian or poe would post about the software in shout back in the day.
11. Rank the top 5 most valuable trade chips in the league as we speak (you can include draft picks).
20s:
1. Aaron Harrison - one of the best players in the league, young, locked up
2. Kristaps Porzingis - not as good as Harrison but young and locked up
3. Gary Bossert - here just based on how unique/rare his talent is. I think some teams would prefer him to Kristaps but gave Kristaps the edge due to youth
4. Blake Griffin - really good young player, think he is the most valuable big
5. Steph Curry - rising young PG, gave him the 2nd most value after Harrison due to Oscar and others' age and salaries
Pete:
1. Harrison - young, inked to a long-term deal, and wreaking havoc with his PG eligibility
2. Porzingis - maybe a homer pick, but he just keeps getting better. Should be an all-league guy for several years
3. Turner - Efficiency is a little lower than you would like to see, but other than that he gives you everything you want from a big man plus the ability to shoot 3s.
4. Marbury - A stud that gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of how many great PGs there are in the league. He's going to anchor some great teams for a long time
5. Conley - Could've gone either way with Marbury and Conley, but I gave Stephon the nod solely because he was 2 years younger. Conley will be great for a long time still and would fetch a huge return if Fason ever decided to move him
Canes:
1. Harrison 2. Conley 3. 1.1 (KG) 4. Curry 5. Blair
2poor:
1. Aaron Harrison
2. Kristaps Porzingis
3. Stephon Marbury
4. Stephen Curry
5. Oscar Robertson (if he were 3 years younger he'd still be #1)
Apologies to Gary Bossert, Mike Conley, Myles Turner, Georges Niang, Blake Griffin, Nick Fazekas, and 1.1
Druce:
1. Harrison
2. Porzingis
3. Blake Griffin
4. Myles Turner
5. Steph Curry
1. What is the biggest mistake new people make in the league? What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made?
20s: Not being patient enough and trading off their biggest assets before they really understand value and how the league works. However, this is tough to stay away from as you want to jump in and start making moves and making the team your own. That is part of the fun of the league. The biggest mistake I have made in 4.0 is probably the Catfish deal. I was coming off of losing Monroe and Champ the free agency before after trying to save a little money on their offers and I had traded Oden in the deal that Catfish came back in. When Catfish hit free agency, I told myself there was no way I was going to lose him by leaving any money on the table. If he left, it was going to be due to the software. So I was probably on a little bit of tilt and worried about losing almost my entire team in back to back free agency periods. It is definitely the worst move I have made, but it hasn't really hurt me as much as I thought it would or could have. I have still managed to have pretty successful teams and I haven't been limited too much in the moves I can make. Now, it could still impact me more down the line if he doesn't retire soon.
Pete: By far the biggest issue when new GMs join the league is not asking for help. No matter what, it's going to take some time to adjust to the grade/rating system and figure out how to properly value players. The more successful new GMs that I've seen (GBG, Heebs, SPL) have not been shy about asking lots of questions and running things by other GMs or the commish early on. My biggest mistake was from a similar refusal to seek guidance. I decided I wanted to tear down the Raptors team I inherited, but didn't run the Moncrief offers I was getting by anyone else. As a result, I accepted a deal that was really shitty and set my team back years. If I had consulted someone, they would've helped me figure out what the best offer really was, or even told me how stupid it was to tear things down considering my pick the next season had already been traded.
Canes: The biggest mistake new GM's make is thinking they have it figured out after a season or 2. It happens with almost every new GM with GBG seeming to be the only exception, where a GM will get absolutely raped by a vet in a trade that sets the vet up for the next 5+ seasons and sets the new GM back the same amount of time. When other GM's tell you to run big trades by another vet GM, DO IT. When the vet tells you that you are making a bad deal, DON'T DO THE TRADE. You don't know more than him, you don't know what you are doing, and you are about to get taken advantage of. The biggest mistake I made as a new GM was way back in 2.0 when I gave up a ton for Marvin Williams and got completely taken advantage of by Trofie. Recently, it was holding onto Reggie King way too long. Insert 2poor being a cunt about Selvy4Oscar
2poor: Not getting at least 3 separate mentors to run literally everything they do by. Vic should have been running his goddamn casino bets by somebody when he started, and he was making moves without consulting anyone. Doing the exact same thing when I started is the biggest mistake I've made. (Naulls to dirt, Gordon to trofie, Steve Mix to... I don't remember who I gifted him to).
Druce: I think the worst mistake, like everyone else has said, is not asking for help when you first start. People come in and look at the league and figure “how hard can this be” when in reality there are a lot of intricacies that a lot of us who’ve been around for a while know and can help with. Heebs did a really good job of this at the beginning, and now he’s one of the more successful GMs we have. I’ve made a couple really big mistakes, one was the Lance trade, which at the end of the day ended up kinda working out a little bit with the return I got for Lovelette and Bol, and the other being the Okafor/Catfish for Bol/Hakeem swap. I was scared of Catfish leaving in FA which is what prompted the moves, but in retrospect they were both awful trades.
2. What is your strategy when it comes to offering free agents? Players you have birds on but aren’t max players?
20s: I don't know how to explain my strategy that much besides trying to bid the amounts that I think will get me the players without having to overpay. By experiencing enough free agency periods, you start to learn what it seems like players like in free agency and you can give yourself a little bit of an advantage by using some of the tricks you pick up. Recently, I declined Lance Stephenson's 5 year resigning offer that would have paid him over 20 million per season and resigned him to a 7 year deal at a flat 18 million per. I don't expect him to play out the contract so the years were really no big deal to me, I just wanted to give myself more space by only paying 18 a season.
Pete: It's been a while since I've had some serious cap room to play with, but I think it's always good to keep an eye on some of the back up guys or guys who blew up in rookie TC but end up buried on a depth chart. A lot of times, people won't take notice or forget about that, and they could turn out to be cheap starters. If I have faith in a guy, I'll go as many as 3 or 4 seasons, but usually I stick to short contracts if they are question marks. For my own guys, I hope to pick up some info in shout or through trade discussions that gives me a hint at what other people value them at. Otherwise, I just try not to get caught overvaluing my own guys.
Canes: If you want to make sure you keep a guy, overpay him. Don't give a max if the guy doesn't deserve it. More often than not, you are better off losing a guy in FA than giving a max he doesn't deserve and can't get bought out. (I should listen to this last one more) Don't fall in love with your own players. Going on tilt if you lose a guy you liked in FA can only lead to bad things (KAT trade).
2poor: I always offer the highest dollar amount I can stomach the thought of paying that person. I don't ever try to be clever on the free agent market.
Druce: I like to try and find guys who didn’t get used to their potential by their previous GM, guys who have good %’s but just kinda floundered on the bench and go after them, I also do this when looking at trades. I also like to come in a bit above MLE for guys who I like if I have cap space for and they aren’t max guys. It’s been a while since I’ve gone after non-max/mle guys so I think I’ve lost touch a bit of what the FA market is.
3. How do you like to approach trade negotiations? Are there people whose pm’s you don’t even bother opening?
20s: I approach trade negotiations with the intent to get a deal done. I don't like to dance around the topic or play a cat and mouse game trying to outwit the other GM. I also feel no need to wring the other GM dry of the most they are willing to give up. That may be a weakness as a GM, but I just approach trades with the intent of getting a deal I like and gets what I am trying to accomplish done, not trying to "win" the trade.
Pete: I try to come strong with my initial offer. I hate it when someone offers me a trade that is comically one sided or makes no sense for me, so I always try to approach it by offering what I consider a good deal for both sides. Sometimes that leads to bad trades for me, like the Andrew Harrison for 1.6 deal, but I can live with that. I open any trade PM i get, but there are a few I haven't bothered to respond to. Most of the time, I will just send back a "no thanks" if I find the offer is way off base.
Canes: Insert a bunch of annoying comments about how I suck to deal with in trades. blah, blah, blah. I try to be fair. I know I overvalue my own guys, but despite the bitching from certain GM's, I have gotten a lot easier to deal with in trades. my last few have been extremely painless. I don't ignore any GM's offers despite reputation/personal feelings/etc. I negotiate with everyone in good faith. There are plenty who don't want to deal with me and that is up to them. I don't hold it against them unless they completely stonewall me then immediately run to shout and bitch about how hard I am to deal with. (Looking at you heebs)
2poor: Unless the GM I'm sending a message to is brand new, I try to go in with a deal that I think has a reasonable chance of being accepted. If I have ever gone in with an offer the other person thought was insultingly low, then I misread the market. Going in with a canes offer just wastes everyone's time. I open and respond to every trade offer I get, just getting silence in return is probably my biggest pet peeve in the league.
Druce: I try to probe and see what the market is most of the time, some people I will low ball at first to see what they say, others I’ll come strong the first time, it’s really all about who I’m talking trade with. How some guys get others to accept trades I’ll never understand, but I’m sure persistence is part of it. I’m never insulted by bad offers because you can’t really blame someone for trying I guess.
4. What do you draft based on? How do you compare players at the same position?
20s: I used to draft strictly based on starting grades (including potential). I have morphed my drafting philosophy over the years and still continue to do so. I now lean more heavily towards the actual starting grades over potential and am much more likely to take a B or C potential guy early. I also try to consider how the commish will treat a player in my evaluation. Finally, I also consider the type of player and what their build will be and how that likely factors into their grades. I also generally draft BPA over need, but there are exceptions. I lean towards drafting PG/wings over bigs as well but there are times when you have to take the big (Joe Smith at 1.2).
For players at the same position, it is just a head to head comparison of all the categories I just mentioned.
Pete: I don't have any official draft system. I usually try to take BPA, ignoring team needs for the most part. I also favor perimeter players over bigs if I think they're relatively equal prospects. At the same position, I will usually look at the key grades first, then their height and weight, then potential. If all else is equal, or sometimes just on gut, I'll draft by external factors like weird names or guys that I think the commish will boost. That worked pretty well in the Odin era, but hasn't served me as well in the Soup era.
Canes: I try to draft BPA first, and need 2nd if two guys are pretty even. Once you have your core 7, you are just hoping to get lucky on a guy who becomes better than a starter you already have, or becomes a valuable trade piece. Grades I try to avoid. C inside for pretty much any position (unless I am drafting a defense first big), B- inside for a big, pretty much guarantees his offensive game will never develop to a high level and that he will shoot too much at a bad percentage if he is a defense first type player.
2poor: I completely ignore potential and look at the other grades. I still let the player's real life career influence me a little more than I probably should, and I tend to go with fit over BPA more than I should. Larry Nance over Blackman could come back to hurt me because of that. During the Hoops Summit era I 100% drafted Spoelstra because of how he did in that game. I miss the Hoops Summit.
Druce: I think it’s pretty well known at this point that I give little to no consideration to potential. I wish I knew more about what goes into certain grades behind the scenes so I could make a better determination on who is truly worthless. There are certain grades I look for for certain positions, and in the 2nd round I like taking fliers on guys with interesting grade sets. I just try to make it less of a gamble than what it already is, but at the end of the day none of us can read the commish’s mind as far as potential goes etc.
5. What is the best strategy to use when re-building?
20s: If you have any young studs, I think it is often best to rebuild while keeping them on your roster. We have seen the scorched earth tank work out for some (eg 76ers) but fail for many others. I don't think people truly consider their lotto odds when going into a scorched earth style tank. You have to be prepared to rebuild with 3-6th pick guys if that is the case. Getting 1.1 requires luck. Lately, I have tried to rebuild on the fly by trading pieces of a successful team for other assets that can keep it going. I just don't like tanking so I am not planning on doing it any time soon.
Pete: I'm a proponent of the half-tank rather than going full scorched-earth. If you've got a star-caliber player, you're better served just hanging onto them and picking in the back half of the lotto than trading them with the hopes that you'll find a good replacement with a top pick. But if your core is aging, don't hold onto them too long. Be serious with yourself about your teams chances and shuffle or clear the deck before your guys are too old and unmovable.
Canes: Best strategy is to know when to blow it up. If you wait too long, all you end up with is a bunch of scraps nobody wants and you are starting over with your firsts and a couple crappy 1sts spread out over the next few seasons. Know when your title window is closed (or never going to open) and get value while you still can and set yourself up for the future. As for drafting, wait as long as possible to get a PG. hitting on a PG assures that your tank has at most one year left in it. Unless you get a guy like Curry, having a decent PG is going to do more harm than good in the long run because he is going to cost you 3-6 draft spots almost immediately.
2poor: Rebuilding sucks, don't do it ever. I've always gone scorched earth tank because in general I lack creativity when it comes to the trade market.
Druce: If you have a legit star who isn’t a point guard, don’t get rid of them just because they’ll win you a few extra games. Most of the time first odds doesn’t get the first pick anyways, and you’ll spend your tank trying to find the player you just gave up. I usually don’t trade my own picks so that makes it easier to rebuild at the drop of a hat as well. I don’t like the idea of going scorched earth, but sometimes it can’t be avoided, and sometimes there isn’t anything really worth keeping.
6. What would you like to see more of, whether it be upgrade ideas, or ideas for the league in general?
20s: I have posted a couple upgrade ideas in the thread before. One of them being sending a player overseas for "blood spinning treatment" or something similar where if you have an old guy who decreases in TC, you can pay to have him restored to his pre-TC grades. The second idea I had was buying insurance on your players. This would cost a nominal fee (say $1,000 per player per season) and if a player that you have insurance on misses more than say 30 games due to injury, you collect on your insurance policy (are paid $5,000 dump bucks or something).
Pete: It's a pretty big undertaking for the commissioner, but I would love to see something like the Clash of the Classes again. I really enjoyed seeing how certain guys performed and whether classes really are as strong/weak as we think.
Canes: I wish the Nike Combine would return. It made drafting a little more strategic than the draft and pray system we have now.
2poor: #wheel
Druce: I really like 20s ideas, and the combine would be cool to come back, but it can also fuck people if a guy has a fluke really good game. I think scouting coming back would be cool but I also understand the time it takes being a large deterring factor. I think it’d be cool if you could buy a like +8 to be split between two guys, or even the same player and limit it to once per career. The +8 would be split between two categories with the max being 5 on one. Or maybe buying an additional TC where you pick 3 categories and you get randomly generated 3 outcomes out of a possible say 10 including some negative.
7. How do you feel about everything being converted to dumpbucks?
20s: I thought it was great originally and I still do. It makes much more sense. We should never go back.
Pete: I like the dumpbuck system. For a while, I was worried because it seemed like the new system was discouraging people from writing articles, but in the past season or two we've seen a good uptick in activity. I think those just tend to happen in waves sometimes.
Canes: Converting everything to dumpbucks was such a simple but perfect change that should have been done as soon as the casino system started. One thing that hasn't happened yet is that articles are not being graded with the mindset that giving someone 3k for a mediocre article isn't a complete waste of the writer's time like giving them 3 points was.
2poor: I am an enormous fan of this change, I think it was a stroke of genius. It really has streamlined a lot of the way the league operates. I'm still hesitant about the league economy being in the hands of dump, but so far it has been a really tremendous improvement.
Druce: I think it was a fantastic idea and I’d also like to take partial credit considering it was part of my initial pitch for the casino back in 2.0 that was met with resounding opposition.
8. Do you have any hard rules for yourself that you don’t break, i.e. never trade a pick past x years out, never draft a guy with x grade in x category?
20s: Not really. The only thing I try not to do is overreact to any small sample such as a first sim, one season's playoffs, etc.
Pete: I have a few guidelines, but not really any set rules. I am a firm believer that you should use every opportunity to upgrade players each season, even if they don't fit into your vision longterm. I can understand someone who doesn't write articles wants to wait until they have a keeper, but it would frustrate me to no end to leave points on the table each season. Also, I am a huge proponent of established players over draft picks when trying to work trades. There are exceptions, but for the most part the person receiving the established guy ends up with the better end of the deal.
Canes: I don't have any hard rules other than don't let myself get baited into doing something dumb by the people who like to troll in shout.
2poor: Well, until this current rebuild I lived by the "don't invest big resources in your frontcourt, just get oodles of perimeter talent" rule, but now look at my team. So I guess I have no longer have any actual rules.
Druce: I have a few grades I won’t draft, I also won’t trade my own picks more than a couple years out. Another thing I won’t do is give help to someone who has denied me the same courtesy in the past, i.e. I asked someone to take on a guy when they were fully capable of doing so for cap reasons, if they were to ask me to do the same at a later date then I won’t be doing so.
9. Is there anything that annoys you about how the league operates?
20s: I wish that there were cap holds that applied if you had a guy who was in the free agent pool so teams weren't able to use their "cap space" to sign other team's FAs before bringing back their own guys after. That is how it operates in real life and I think it is a little more fair, but I realize that is not a possibility with this software so it won't happen and that is fine. Since we must play the cards we are dealt, I am going to take advantage of that loophole if I can. For example, last offseason by not accepting Lance or Gottfried's resigning offers after trading Marbury, I had about 9.2 million in cap space going into Day 1/2 of FA. I offered Chris Duhon almost all of that cap space on a 3 year deal in order to try to entice him to sign early (and hopefully before Lance or Gottfried accepted my offers). Luckily, it worked out for me and I was able to sign Duhon with my cap space and then resign Lance and Gottfried due to bird rights all in the first day of FA.
Pete: I'm pretty happy with how everything operates. Soup has done a great job of keeping a consistent schedule and has really been on top of things. Honestly, things have been running pretty smoothly for a while, so we're probably overdue for some controversy.
Canes: Other than that some GM's feel the need to be cunty about absolutely everything in shout/ in threads, TMBSL is a pretty well run place. The trolling game is beyond played out and is something I wish some posters had grown out of by the time they graduated undergrad.
2poor: I'm annoyed that we don't have hard and fast rules to protect people who are new to the league. Things like the Moncrief deal and the Westphal deal just shouldn't happen. Those GMs had no idea what the fuck they were doing at the time. I don't think the welcome to the league trade rape is something that we actually should be cool with.
Druce: I agree with 20s on the cap holds, but that would be hard to integrate. I really like the consistency of soup and his availability. The only thing I would like to see is some kind of reform in regards to the draft and the time it takes between picks. I know we’ve gotten a lot quicker with it, but I think people should be penalized for not sending in lists when they know good and well when the draft is happening. I understand trying to trade, but be prepared and work out deals before hand. There are very few situations where you can’t work out a deal if a certain player is available and text soup that you agree worst case scenario.
10. How long did it take you to really “catch on” to the way things are in the league?
20s: I joined at the inception of the league so I was learning right alongside everyone else so I was never at a disadvantage. Probably all of 1.0 to really pick everything up. The time I felt the most clueless was when I joined 4.0 after three seasons had already occurred and I had no idea about some of the rules and players in the league. That was a quick learning curve though, less than one sim season.
Pete: It took me a few seasons and a lot of screw ups before I got my feet under me. Each mistake was a valuable lesson, and each stage of my initial teardown/rebuild taught me different things. I think it was around four seasons before I fully grasped what I was doing. The rest of the league (shout, articles, etc.) I was able to pick up pretty quickly, so that was a big help as well.
Canes: It took a full tank and rebuild to finally figure it out. so 5+ seasons.
2poor: I think it took me at least 4 seasons to fully comprehend how everything works. Around the time I got Magic in 2.0 is when things started really clicking.
Druce: It took me quite a while honestly to figure out the inner workings of grades etc. It helped to be around when ian or poe would post about the software in shout back in the day.
11. Rank the top 5 most valuable trade chips in the league as we speak (you can include draft picks).
20s:
1. Aaron Harrison - one of the best players in the league, young, locked up
2. Kristaps Porzingis - not as good as Harrison but young and locked up
3. Gary Bossert - here just based on how unique/rare his talent is. I think some teams would prefer him to Kristaps but gave Kristaps the edge due to youth
4. Blake Griffin - really good young player, think he is the most valuable big
5. Steph Curry - rising young PG, gave him the 2nd most value after Harrison due to Oscar and others' age and salaries
Pete:
1. Harrison - young, inked to a long-term deal, and wreaking havoc with his PG eligibility
2. Porzingis - maybe a homer pick, but he just keeps getting better. Should be an all-league guy for several years
3. Turner - Efficiency is a little lower than you would like to see, but other than that he gives you everything you want from a big man plus the ability to shoot 3s.
4. Marbury - A stud that gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of how many great PGs there are in the league. He's going to anchor some great teams for a long time
5. Conley - Could've gone either way with Marbury and Conley, but I gave Stephon the nod solely because he was 2 years younger. Conley will be great for a long time still and would fetch a huge return if Fason ever decided to move him
Canes:
1. Harrison 2. Conley 3. 1.1 (KG) 4. Curry 5. Blair
2poor:
1. Aaron Harrison
2. Kristaps Porzingis
3. Stephon Marbury
4. Stephen Curry
5. Oscar Robertson (if he were 3 years younger he'd still be #1)
Apologies to Gary Bossert, Mike Conley, Myles Turner, Georges Niang, Blake Griffin, Nick Fazekas, and 1.1
Druce:
1. Harrison
2. Porzingis
3. Blake Griffin
4. Myles Turner
5. Steph Curry
