Post by Face-in on May 2, 2016 9:16:07 GMT -6
eric Heebs Lazy Pete Odin Trofie and gbgalla24 gave me their top 50 players in the league. Also Souper Troopers gave me the software's top 50. I used a point system after compiling our lists to come up with the rankings. Gave 50 points for 1st place vote, 49 for 2nd, 48 for 3rd, ... 1 for 50th.
This is just the 50 best players in the league for 3031. Age and contracts do not matter.
Top 50
50. Gregor Clegane
49. Jonathan Bender
48. Joe Smith
47. Tyus Edney
46. Doug Overton
45. Elton Brand
44. Tristan Thompson
43. Jabari Parker
42. Bill Sharman
41. Myles Turner
40. Willie Nauls
39. Adreian Payne
38. Chris Webber
37. Bismack Biyombo
36. Paul Arizin
35. Luther Wright
34. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
33. Kenny Anderson
32. Ronald Savage
31. Arvydas Sabonis
30. Benji Wilson
29. Tobias Harris
28. DeJuan Blair
27. Rudy Gay
26. Mystic Stone
25. Dante Exum
24. John Vanbiesbrouck
23. Jonas Valanciunas
22. Dario Saric
21. Bob Cousy
20. Brook Lopez
19. Rowdy Eavenson
18. Kevin Garnett
17. Julius Randle
16. Jeff Hornacek
15. Tobi Oyedeji
14. Steve Francis
13. Jimmy Chitwood
12. Brandon Knight
11. Terrell Brandon
10. Larry Johnson
9. Jesus Shuttlesworth
8. George Ackles
7. Matthew Lockhart
6. Joel Embiid
5. Sandor Clegane
4. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Brooks
2. Sim Dump
1. Kyrie Irving
Player that also received votes
51. Blake Griffin
52. Len Bias
53. Eric Gordon
54. Kawhi Leonard
55. Dikembe Mutombo
56. Wes Matthews
57. Greg Anthony
58. Kevin McHale
59. Nicola Vucevic
60. Derrick Rose
61. Penny Hardaway
62. Mitch McGary
63. Shawn Bradley
64. Tyreke Evans
65. Isiah Thomas
66. Bobby Hurley
67. Lil Penny
68. Lamar Odom
69. Damon Stoudamire
70. Maurice Stokes
71. Stephen Curry
72. Russell Westbrook
73. Jeff Murray
74. Hassan Whiteside
75. Jordan Clarkson
76. Hasheem Thabet
77. Mike Woodson
78. Shaquille O'Neal
79. Jimmy Jackson
80. LaBradford Smith
1.Who are the biggest snubs?
Kevin McHale. C'mon people. Honorable mention goes to Jeff Murray.
William Avery, obviously. Other names that stand out are Blake Griffin, Vucevic, and all of those ridiculous d first wings everyone is going crazy over.
Lamar Odom and Maurice Stokes, but even they aren't massive snubs, and I understand the reticence to name either one.
Kawhi Leonard should be on that list. I had him in the thirties. Maybe Wes Matthews or Hasaan Whiteside who has been steady for awhile.
While Penny still has his turnover achilles heel, I think he's deserving of making the list. He's not quite Magic Johnson with the triple doubles, but he's as close as we've seen in a while, and if his surrounding team was better I think he would've made it. Also, as an unabashed homer, I think Wes Matthews could've snuck on above someone like Tyus Edney. There are a couple bigs, like Vucevic and Mutombo, who I felt were deserving as well.
A Couple of guys that made my list , that aren't on here would be; Eric Gordon, Mike Woodson, Jeff Murray, Wes Matthews, and Kawhi Leonard.
Nikola Vucevic and Wes Matthews could have made it, but there weren’t any absurd omissions imo.
2.Who are the most overrated players on the list?
Embiid. He is great. He is a top 3 big. But Tobi is better than him. Randle is probably better than him. But Lockhart, Ackles, Jesus, and LJ are all also better players than Embiid. I think the issue is people give dump too little credit as a GM and assume Embiid is solely responsible for the Celtics being good.
I don’t think sim dump is better than the elite wings. Sorry, just don’t. I need Chris Webber to show more before he can be top 40 (of course I put shaq at 50 but that’s different). Willie Nauls is on here apparently, and so are Doug Overton and Joe Smith.
John Vanbiesbrouck stands out to me. He's a good scorer but not a great one, his box score doesn't give you anything else, and he's a good defender. Top fifty maybe, #24 definitely not. Jabari Parker and Tristan Thompson are pretty low on the list but they shouldn't even be sniffing it. Jabari is a good scorer, average rebounder, poor defender, terrible turnoverer. TT is a def/reb big that shoots twenty times a game, yes his blocks/rebs are amazing but he gives it all back clanking jumpers and fumbling layups.
Rowdy and/or Tobi seem high to me. I left Rowdy off my list and had Tobi pretty low. Rowdy has had some deep teams around him in LA and Memphis. I think he is good, but not quite top 50 good, and I think Tobi is a little higher based on reputation over actual production.
Lopez puts up good win shares, but I really don't consider him a top 20 player in the league. Myles Turner has had an incredible career, but I have a hard time including him here either. And I shouldn't really complain about #49, but I think Bender is overrated due to his great grades and the player people think he's going to be moreso than what he's actually done. He's a big man turning it over almost 3 times a game and shooting a FG% below .400. I don't think he's earned his place just yet
Jonathon Bender isn't overrated by his position on the list I just don't think he deserves to be on it at all if we're going by current stature. Joe Smith shouldn't be on this.
John Vanbiesbrouck is too high at 24. He’s good but not a top 25 player.
I’m not a big fan of Kenny Anderson. I had him at 41.
Joe Smith doesn’t deserve to be on the list based off his limited playing time.
3.Who are the most underrated players on the list?
Bismack Biyombo is criminally underrated. Jonathan Bender is similarly underrated.
Rowdy is by far the best defensive pg a league that has always been dominated by PGS. Assists or no, he’s definitely not 19. Luther Wright should be much higher, definitely about Exum and probably about where Randle is. Dude is very good.
Rowdy and Shareef are both top ten guys. Maybe you can dock Shareef a little for being more likely to be injured, but #34 is absurdly low. Kenny Anderson should also be much higher but not quite top ten.
I'll go with Bill Sharman. I had him inside my top 30 at 29. Much higher than the 42 on the composite list.
Savage is lower than he should be. He's not leading the league in scoring but he's still near 30 a game and chips in a good number of rebounds and assists as well. I think Dario Saric belongs higher on the list as well, as he took a huge leap last season and stuffs the stat sheet like few others. I thought Tristan Thompson would get more love considering he's won 2 of the past 3 DPOYs. I also figured Tobias might get closer to top 20 considering he's putting up big time scoring numbers, but I'm also pretty biased on the matter.
I had Cwebb higher, and I think that Steve Francis should be higher.
DeJuan Blair is way too low. He is still one of the best bigs in the league.
Shareef was penalized for his injury. He’s one of the most efficient players in the league.
4.Which team do you feel is underachieving with the talent on their roster?
T'Wolves. Gay Dump, and Vanbiesbrouck should be better.
I’ll give a top 5 for this one but in no particular order. Bullets, Wolves, Bucks, Kings, Nuggets
Gotta be the Jazz. Nine years of George Ackles and two playoff rounds won. In the same span the Kings have been to four Conference Finals and won one. No titles but at least they're doing something.
I guess the Kings and Rockets maybe. The Kings have been tremendous regular season teams and they've been unlucky with injuries in the playoffs, but they've had some of the most talented teams around and still haven't brought home the title. Rockets being a high lotto team despite more than one too 50 player is bad, but that was by design; so it's tough to hold it against Dil.
The Jazz have a whole lot of players on this list, and have succeeded in the regular season, but I'm surprised they've yet to make any kind of postseason run. The Wolves have one of the best perimeter trios in the league but can't seem to break into the legit contender category. But the most disappointing has to be the Grizzlies. They don't have all the pieces in place, but with Tobi and Savage alone you'd think that team would be safely in the playoffs. Druce really needs to find himself a PG.
As far as playoff success it would be the kings. Not fair but it is.
Regular season success as of late it would be the Jazz
The Timberwolves have the second best player in the league and two wings inside the top 27. They should have won more than 54 games and not lost to the Kings in the playoffs without Brandon Knight.
5.Who do you think will make the biggest climb up the rankings this upcoming season?
McHale. Bender if Dil plays him at wing.
Steve Francis, Luther Wright, Chris Webber, Jabari Parker, Tristan Thompson if he gets traded but he won’t because shaun is pointlessly holding onto him.
I think Doug Overton will get the chance to shine for a big market club. If he could take the small town New York Town Small Market Knicks to the Finals, he'll be on the cover of SI indefinitely for what he does in the East Coast media bias of Denver (for example).
Chris Webber, Jonathan Bender, Steve Francis, and hopefully Elton Brand.
As I mentioned earlier, I think Penny is primed for a really impressive season now that it looks like Canes is ready to end his tank. I could see him rocketing up the rankings. Also, if Luther Wright keeps developing his rebounding and shot blocking, he's going to be one of the top bigs in the league. He's already super-efficient and is a great front court mate for Embiid.
Jabari Parker
Francis will be a top 5 guy
With Team success I think you see a guy like Benji hit top 20
I like Steve Francis, Dante Exum, Chris Webber, Jabari Parker and Jonathan Bender to all make big leaps this season.
6.Do you think any rookies from the 3032 draft will be on the list next season?
Jimmy. Shaq. Maybe Epstein assuming he moves to SG.
Look at the last 10 or so, if Shaq and JJ are any good they’d be locks.
:X
I think Shaq and Jackson are going to be on this list sooner than later. They both have tremendous starting grades and he expectations are high.
At least one of Jimmy Jackson, Shaq and Epstein will be top 50 off the bat, and I wouldn't be surprised to see all three earn a spot. Unlike most rookies these days, i think it's reasonable to expect that all three will be big contributors from day 1. Epstein is the biggest question mark, if Eric's threats about being the only one who can maximize his ability actually have some truth to them.
Two of them obviously , Shaq and Jimmy J . Epstein has an outside shot.
Jackson and Shaq will definitely be there. I could see Epstein too; I’ve mentioned numerous times that I expect him to be like Ty Lawson.
7.Rank the depth of the positions in the league from strongest to weakest.
The league is really balanced right now. At the elite end of the spectrum, it is very balanced. I'd say it's probably easiest to find a contributing wing, and hardest to find a competent big man. The bigs seem to be cookie cutter, with an over saturation of def/reb bigs.
SF, PG, PF, SG, C
Judging by the list it's SF/PF, PG, SG, C. Judging by what it ought to be it's SF, PG/PF, SG, C. I think either of those are about right. C is mercifully getting out of its doldrums but just has so far to go to catch up.
1)PG
2)SG
3) PF
4) SF
5) C
SG
SF
PG
C
PF
Pg
Sg
C
Sf
Pf
SG
SF
PG
C
PF
8.Any general thoughts on the list or talent in the league overall?
Turnovermageddon never really happened. The balance in overall talent is a credit to eric, soup, and Druce/Fason on performing their respective tasks in building the player base.
Awful lot of honkies in here.
The talent in the league is in a really good spot. Not too much, not too little. Good mix. I think the 3032 draft class is going to push it a little high but we don't get JJ/Shaq every year so that'll be alright.
I think there is a lot of talent out there, and the league has been as competitive as ever as evidenced by the lack of a repeat champ in years.
Like last time, I was curious on the splits for who was making the players. Within the top 50, we've got 22 Soup era players, 26 Eric era players, and an impressive 2 holdouts from the Odin administration. It should be mentioned that Soup has definitely or likely made several of the Eric-era players, but Eric's baby Kyrie managed to take home the top honors.
Additionally, there were 8 players not taken in the lottery (George Ackles, Brandon Knight, Jeff Hornacek, Rowdy Eavenson, Mystic Stone, Luther Wright, Doug Overton, and Tyus Edney). 4 were taken in the back half of the first round, while the other 4 went in the 2nd.
I think it's incredibly balanced at the moment. Perfect balance of great players atm . When you look at the top 20, how many of those players were top 20 in the league? Perfect "Sim" league balance.
There were only 5 players in the top 50 that were still on their rookie deals (Jesus, Francis, Wright, Webber and Bender). It’s taking players a little longer to reach their potential, but they are getting there by their 4th or 5th year.
This is just the 50 best players in the league for 3031. Age and contracts do not matter.
Top 50
50. Gregor Clegane
49. Jonathan Bender
48. Joe Smith
47. Tyus Edney
46. Doug Overton
45. Elton Brand
44. Tristan Thompson
43. Jabari Parker
42. Bill Sharman
41. Myles Turner
40. Willie Nauls
39. Adreian Payne
38. Chris Webber
37. Bismack Biyombo
36. Paul Arizin
35. Luther Wright
34. Shareef Abdur-Rahim
33. Kenny Anderson
32. Ronald Savage
31. Arvydas Sabonis
30. Benji Wilson
29. Tobias Harris
28. DeJuan Blair
27. Rudy Gay
26. Mystic Stone
25. Dante Exum
24. John Vanbiesbrouck
23. Jonas Valanciunas
22. Dario Saric
21. Bob Cousy
20. Brook Lopez
19. Rowdy Eavenson
18. Kevin Garnett
17. Julius Randle
16. Jeff Hornacek
15. Tobi Oyedeji
14. Steve Francis
13. Jimmy Chitwood
12. Brandon Knight
11. Terrell Brandon
10. Larry Johnson
9. Jesus Shuttlesworth
8. George Ackles
7. Matthew Lockhart
6. Joel Embiid
5. Sandor Clegane
4. Jimmy Butler
3. Kevin Brooks
2. Sim Dump
1. Kyrie Irving
Player that also received votes
51. Blake Griffin
52. Len Bias
53. Eric Gordon
54. Kawhi Leonard
55. Dikembe Mutombo
56. Wes Matthews
57. Greg Anthony
58. Kevin McHale
59. Nicola Vucevic
60. Derrick Rose
61. Penny Hardaway
62. Mitch McGary
63. Shawn Bradley
64. Tyreke Evans
65. Isiah Thomas
66. Bobby Hurley
67. Lil Penny
68. Lamar Odom
69. Damon Stoudamire
70. Maurice Stokes
71. Stephen Curry
72. Russell Westbrook
73. Jeff Murray
74. Hassan Whiteside
75. Jordan Clarkson
76. Hasheem Thabet
77. Mike Woodson
78. Shaquille O'Neal
79. Jimmy Jackson
80. LaBradford Smith
1.Who are the biggest snubs?
Kevin McHale. C'mon people. Honorable mention goes to Jeff Murray.
William Avery, obviously. Other names that stand out are Blake Griffin, Vucevic, and all of those ridiculous d first wings everyone is going crazy over.
Lamar Odom and Maurice Stokes, but even they aren't massive snubs, and I understand the reticence to name either one.
Kawhi Leonard should be on that list. I had him in the thirties. Maybe Wes Matthews or Hasaan Whiteside who has been steady for awhile.
While Penny still has his turnover achilles heel, I think he's deserving of making the list. He's not quite Magic Johnson with the triple doubles, but he's as close as we've seen in a while, and if his surrounding team was better I think he would've made it. Also, as an unabashed homer, I think Wes Matthews could've snuck on above someone like Tyus Edney. There are a couple bigs, like Vucevic and Mutombo, who I felt were deserving as well.
A Couple of guys that made my list , that aren't on here would be; Eric Gordon, Mike Woodson, Jeff Murray, Wes Matthews, and Kawhi Leonard.
Nikola Vucevic and Wes Matthews could have made it, but there weren’t any absurd omissions imo.
2.Who are the most overrated players on the list?
Embiid. He is great. He is a top 3 big. But Tobi is better than him. Randle is probably better than him. But Lockhart, Ackles, Jesus, and LJ are all also better players than Embiid. I think the issue is people give dump too little credit as a GM and assume Embiid is solely responsible for the Celtics being good.
I don’t think sim dump is better than the elite wings. Sorry, just don’t. I need Chris Webber to show more before he can be top 40 (of course I put shaq at 50 but that’s different). Willie Nauls is on here apparently, and so are Doug Overton and Joe Smith.
John Vanbiesbrouck stands out to me. He's a good scorer but not a great one, his box score doesn't give you anything else, and he's a good defender. Top fifty maybe, #24 definitely not. Jabari Parker and Tristan Thompson are pretty low on the list but they shouldn't even be sniffing it. Jabari is a good scorer, average rebounder, poor defender, terrible turnoverer. TT is a def/reb big that shoots twenty times a game, yes his blocks/rebs are amazing but he gives it all back clanking jumpers and fumbling layups.
Rowdy and/or Tobi seem high to me. I left Rowdy off my list and had Tobi pretty low. Rowdy has had some deep teams around him in LA and Memphis. I think he is good, but not quite top 50 good, and I think Tobi is a little higher based on reputation over actual production.
Lopez puts up good win shares, but I really don't consider him a top 20 player in the league. Myles Turner has had an incredible career, but I have a hard time including him here either. And I shouldn't really complain about #49, but I think Bender is overrated due to his great grades and the player people think he's going to be moreso than what he's actually done. He's a big man turning it over almost 3 times a game and shooting a FG% below .400. I don't think he's earned his place just yet
Jonathon Bender isn't overrated by his position on the list I just don't think he deserves to be on it at all if we're going by current stature. Joe Smith shouldn't be on this.
John Vanbiesbrouck is too high at 24. He’s good but not a top 25 player.
I’m not a big fan of Kenny Anderson. I had him at 41.
Joe Smith doesn’t deserve to be on the list based off his limited playing time.
3.Who are the most underrated players on the list?
Bismack Biyombo is criminally underrated. Jonathan Bender is similarly underrated.
Rowdy is by far the best defensive pg a league that has always been dominated by PGS. Assists or no, he’s definitely not 19. Luther Wright should be much higher, definitely about Exum and probably about where Randle is. Dude is very good.
Rowdy and Shareef are both top ten guys. Maybe you can dock Shareef a little for being more likely to be injured, but #34 is absurdly low. Kenny Anderson should also be much higher but not quite top ten.
I'll go with Bill Sharman. I had him inside my top 30 at 29. Much higher than the 42 on the composite list.
Savage is lower than he should be. He's not leading the league in scoring but he's still near 30 a game and chips in a good number of rebounds and assists as well. I think Dario Saric belongs higher on the list as well, as he took a huge leap last season and stuffs the stat sheet like few others. I thought Tristan Thompson would get more love considering he's won 2 of the past 3 DPOYs. I also figured Tobias might get closer to top 20 considering he's putting up big time scoring numbers, but I'm also pretty biased on the matter.
I had Cwebb higher, and I think that Steve Francis should be higher.
DeJuan Blair is way too low. He is still one of the best bigs in the league.
Shareef was penalized for his injury. He’s one of the most efficient players in the league.
4.Which team do you feel is underachieving with the talent on their roster?
T'Wolves. Gay Dump, and Vanbiesbrouck should be better.
I’ll give a top 5 for this one but in no particular order. Bullets, Wolves, Bucks, Kings, Nuggets
Gotta be the Jazz. Nine years of George Ackles and two playoff rounds won. In the same span the Kings have been to four Conference Finals and won one. No titles but at least they're doing something.
I guess the Kings and Rockets maybe. The Kings have been tremendous regular season teams and they've been unlucky with injuries in the playoffs, but they've had some of the most talented teams around and still haven't brought home the title. Rockets being a high lotto team despite more than one too 50 player is bad, but that was by design; so it's tough to hold it against Dil.
The Jazz have a whole lot of players on this list, and have succeeded in the regular season, but I'm surprised they've yet to make any kind of postseason run. The Wolves have one of the best perimeter trios in the league but can't seem to break into the legit contender category. But the most disappointing has to be the Grizzlies. They don't have all the pieces in place, but with Tobi and Savage alone you'd think that team would be safely in the playoffs. Druce really needs to find himself a PG.
As far as playoff success it would be the kings. Not fair but it is.
Regular season success as of late it would be the Jazz
The Timberwolves have the second best player in the league and two wings inside the top 27. They should have won more than 54 games and not lost to the Kings in the playoffs without Brandon Knight.
5.Who do you think will make the biggest climb up the rankings this upcoming season?
McHale. Bender if Dil plays him at wing.
Steve Francis, Luther Wright, Chris Webber, Jabari Parker, Tristan Thompson if he gets traded but he won’t because shaun is pointlessly holding onto him.
I think Doug Overton will get the chance to shine for a big market club. If he could take the small town New York Town Small Market Knicks to the Finals, he'll be on the cover of SI indefinitely for what he does in the East Coast media bias of Denver (for example).
Chris Webber, Jonathan Bender, Steve Francis, and hopefully Elton Brand.
As I mentioned earlier, I think Penny is primed for a really impressive season now that it looks like Canes is ready to end his tank. I could see him rocketing up the rankings. Also, if Luther Wright keeps developing his rebounding and shot blocking, he's going to be one of the top bigs in the league. He's already super-efficient and is a great front court mate for Embiid.
Jabari Parker
Francis will be a top 5 guy
With Team success I think you see a guy like Benji hit top 20
I like Steve Francis, Dante Exum, Chris Webber, Jabari Parker and Jonathan Bender to all make big leaps this season.
6.Do you think any rookies from the 3032 draft will be on the list next season?
Jimmy. Shaq. Maybe Epstein assuming he moves to SG.
Look at the last 10 or so, if Shaq and JJ are any good they’d be locks.
:X
I think Shaq and Jackson are going to be on this list sooner than later. They both have tremendous starting grades and he expectations are high.
At least one of Jimmy Jackson, Shaq and Epstein will be top 50 off the bat, and I wouldn't be surprised to see all three earn a spot. Unlike most rookies these days, i think it's reasonable to expect that all three will be big contributors from day 1. Epstein is the biggest question mark, if Eric's threats about being the only one who can maximize his ability actually have some truth to them.
Two of them obviously , Shaq and Jimmy J . Epstein has an outside shot.
Jackson and Shaq will definitely be there. I could see Epstein too; I’ve mentioned numerous times that I expect him to be like Ty Lawson.
7.Rank the depth of the positions in the league from strongest to weakest.
The league is really balanced right now. At the elite end of the spectrum, it is very balanced. I'd say it's probably easiest to find a contributing wing, and hardest to find a competent big man. The bigs seem to be cookie cutter, with an over saturation of def/reb bigs.
SF, PG, PF, SG, C
Judging by the list it's SF/PF, PG, SG, C. Judging by what it ought to be it's SF, PG/PF, SG, C. I think either of those are about right. C is mercifully getting out of its doldrums but just has so far to go to catch up.
1)PG
2)SG
3) PF
4) SF
5) C
SG
SF
PG
C
PF
Pg
Sg
C
Sf
Pf
SG
SF
PG
C
PF
8.Any general thoughts on the list or talent in the league overall?
Turnovermageddon never really happened. The balance in overall talent is a credit to eric, soup, and Druce/Fason on performing their respective tasks in building the player base.
Awful lot of honkies in here.
The talent in the league is in a really good spot. Not too much, not too little. Good mix. I think the 3032 draft class is going to push it a little high but we don't get JJ/Shaq every year so that'll be alright.
I think there is a lot of talent out there, and the league has been as competitive as ever as evidenced by the lack of a repeat champ in years.
Like last time, I was curious on the splits for who was making the players. Within the top 50, we've got 22 Soup era players, 26 Eric era players, and an impressive 2 holdouts from the Odin administration. It should be mentioned that Soup has definitely or likely made several of the Eric-era players, but Eric's baby Kyrie managed to take home the top honors.
Additionally, there were 8 players not taken in the lottery (George Ackles, Brandon Knight, Jeff Hornacek, Rowdy Eavenson, Mystic Stone, Luther Wright, Doug Overton, and Tyus Edney). 4 were taken in the back half of the first round, while the other 4 went in the 2nd.
I think it's incredibly balanced at the moment. Perfect balance of great players atm . When you look at the top 20, how many of those players were top 20 in the league? Perfect "Sim" league balance.
There were only 5 players in the top 50 that were still on their rookie deals (Jesus, Francis, Wright, Webber and Bender). It’s taking players a little longer to reach their potential, but they are getting there by their 4th or 5th year.
