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Post by eric on Jun 19, 2017 13:56:12 GMT -6
Let's start with some facts, comparing Paul George and Kevin Love's Minnesota career.
Fact: Paul George has only made All-NBA Third Team.
Fact: Kevin Love made All-NBA Second Team twice.
Fact: Paul George's peak WS/48 was 2014 (pre-injury) with .178.
Fact: Kevin Love did .210 or better three times.
Fact: Paul George's career on/off is +7, dropping the rookie season where he came off the bench.
Fact: Kevin Love's was too, with the same caveat.
Fact: ESPN's real plus minus only goes back to 2014, when Kevin Love had a +5.1 and Paul George +2.7.
Fact: In the three years since, Love is +4.3 and George +3.8.
Fact: Paul George is an average rebounder, getting 10.7% of total rebounds and 3.0% of offensive rebounds.
Fact: Kevin Love is much better, getting 20.9% and 12.3%.
Fact: They're about the same shooting: 37% from three and .97 points per long jumper for George, 36% and .97 for Love
Fact: And they're about the same passing: peaking at 4 ast per 36 mp and 1.2 ast:tov
Fact: But Love does it from the power forward and center positions, while George has played only 10% of his minutes as a big man.
Fact: Paul George is two years younger on the calendar, but...
Fact: he is only four thousand minutes younger on the odometer, and...
Fact: he is a free agent next summer, while Kevin Love is under two more years of team control.
Fact: Kevin Love has played with the Cavaliers for three years.
Fact: Paul George has played with LeBron and Kyrie in a couple All-Star games.
.
There's no evidence Paul George is the better player.
The Cavaliers have more continuity and security with Kevin Love.
So the Cavs shouldn't trade Paul George if it means giving up Kevin Love.
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Post by Heebs on Jun 19, 2017 17:57:59 GMT -6
:trumpwrong:
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Post by eric on Jun 19, 2017 19:47:50 GMT -6
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Post by kn88 on Jun 19, 2017 20:57:24 GMT -6
Fact: Love doesn't smash strippers raw and impregnate them
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Post by Delap on Jun 20, 2017 6:41:49 GMT -6
Kevin Love isn't the problem on Cleveland.
TT's giant contract and the absolutely craptastic roster of "role" players handpicked by Bron Bron (Smith, Shump, Williams, etc.) are the problems.
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Post by eric on Jun 20, 2017 9:05:00 GMT -6
Kevin Love isn't the problem on Cleveland. TT's giant contract and the absolutely craptastic roster of "role" players handpicked by Bron Bron (Smith, Shump, Williams, etc.) are the problems. People still haven't recalibrated for the new era of contracts. It's not just you, so don't feel like you're being singled out. . The average NBA team salary last year was $99m. We know it's gonna go up but let's just say $99m going forward, and if it turns out the players in question are generating efficiently then we'll really know they're good bargains. J.R. is making about $14m a year over the next two years and generates about .10 WS/48, which is league average. Barring injury he gives you about 2500 MP a year, so that's 2500 * .1 / 48 = 5.2 WS a year, and you want $14m * 41 WS / $99m = 5.8 WS a year from his salary slot, so he's a slight overpay. It's also crucial to point out that the Cavs were already over the cap when they signed this contract. Tristan Thompson is making about $17.5m a year over the next three years, gives you .17 WS/48, and plays 2300 MP a year. You want 7.2 WS a year from a $17.5m man, TT gives you 8.1, slight bargain. Shump is making about $11m a year, gives you .06 WS/48, plays about 1600 MP a year. You want 4.6, he gives you 2.0, that's a big overpay. I'm as big a Deron Williams critic as anyone, but the Cavs paid him $259,626 last year. Getting literally any production out of a guy at that salary level is pretty good bang for the buck. . So overall Shumpert is the only outright bad contract on the roster, but even if they move him for nothing they'll still be way over the cap, and while .06 is far from good it's also not something you can automatically find on the minimum bid market. . . It's also worth pointing out that a functionally identical roster won a title in 2016, so GM LeBron can't have done all that bad a job. Sometimes you just peak at the wrong time: no one looks at the late 90s Jazz and thinks the GM was the problem, you know what I mean? RC Buford didn't suddenly become a terrible GM from 2000-2002 and then remember how to be a good GM from 2003-2007. And so on and so on. |
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Post by Heebs on Jun 20, 2017 9:17:13 GMT -6
PG13 for Love. Post it.
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Post by SPL on Jun 20, 2017 10:05:41 GMT -6
I think it has more to do with how they want to match up with Golden State. Kevin Love having to guard athletic players on the perimiter was not good in the finals, there were times that he was really exposed as a weakness.
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Post by eric on Jun 20, 2017 11:03:52 GMT -6
I think it has more to do with how they want to match up with Golden State. Kevin Love having to guard athletic players on the perimiter was not good in the finals, there were times that he was really exposed as a weakness. every player has weaknesses though, you could just as easily say Love matches up better with GS than George because he dominates the glass. he led all players with 18 offensive rebounds in the Finals, George would get you about 4. that's a lot of extra possessions to make up for trying to defend the Durants and Steph Currys of the world, who are probably gonna get theirs anyway. there's also the rest of the roster to consider. George is going to bump JR Smith from the starting lineup and Iman Shumpert or Richard Jefferson from the rotation. that's fine - JR Smith is an average player, George is a good player. but losing Kevin Love means you have to put someone at power forward. you think Kevin Love's bad at defense, wait until you see Channing Frye lumbering around out there. they're already way over the cap, they're not going to be able to bring in anyone too terribly good. it's easy to say "well just have LeBron play power forward!" or "well just have George play power forward!" but we all know that neither one of them is gonna do that full time, because neither one of them wants to do that full time. even in the finals when they were at times rocking LeBron in point center looks, he still played 42% of the time with two of Thompson, Love, and Frye (i.e. as a small forward). |
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Post by TimPig on Jun 20, 2017 11:19:40 GMT -6
What about a Kevin Love vs. Jimmy Butler comparison?
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Post by SPL on Jun 20, 2017 11:52:34 GMT -6
I think it has more to do with how they want to match up with Golden State. Kevin Love having to guard athletic players on the perimiter was not good in the finals, there were times that he was really exposed as a weakness. every player has weaknesses though, you could just as easily say Love matches up better with GS than George because he dominates the glass. he led all players with 18 offensive rebounds in the Finals, George would get you about 4. that's a lot of extra possessions to make up for trying to defend the Durants and Steph Currys of the world, who are probably gonna get theirs anyway. there's also the rest of the roster to consider. George is going to bump JR Smith from the starting lineup and Iman Shumpert or Richard Jefferson from the rotation. that's fine - JR Smith is an average player, George is a good player. but losing Kevin Love means you have to put someone at power forward. you think Kevin Love's bad at defense, wait until you see Channing Frye lumbering around out there. they're already way over the cap, they're not going to be able to bring in anyone too terribly good. it's easy to say "well just have LeBron play power forward!" or "well just have George play power forward!" but we all know that neither one of them is gonna do that full time, because neither one of them wants to do that full time. even in the finals when they were at times rocking LeBron in point center looks, he still played 42% of the time with two of Thompson, Love, and Frye (i.e. as a small forward). I don't think you can make that argument when your team just gave up almost 126 a game in the finals. Yes, there are things that Love does really well for teams, however, matching up in a wide open game is not one of them. |
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Post by eric on Jun 20, 2017 12:30:31 GMT -6
What about a Kevin Love vs. Jimmy Butler comparison? Jimmy has even worse accolades than Georgie (though all three have won Most Improved Player), his composite stats are in between the two, as is his contract situation with one year of control after next year. On a more granular level his passing is better and his shooting is worse, and he fits more naturally at shooting guard. The Cavs also shouldn't make that trade either if they want to win now, but if they're trying to set up a post-LeBron core of Kyrie and somebody, Jimmy is a much better choice than George or Love. I don't think you can make that argument when your team just gave up almost 126 a game in the finals. Yes, there are things that Love does really well for teams, however, matching up in a wide open game is not one of them. Again though, you've got tunnel vision on defense. Everyone agrees Paul George is a better defender than Kevin Love. My point is that if the trade gets you two points a game on the defensive end and costs you two points a game on the offensive end, you haven't gotten anywhere. |
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Post by SPL on Jun 20, 2017 13:23:35 GMT -6
What about a Kevin Love vs. Jimmy Butler comparison? Jimmy has even worse accolades than Georgie (though all three have won Most Improved Player), his composite stats are in between the two, as is his contract situation with one year of control after next year. On a more granular level his passing is better and his shooting is worse, and he fits more naturally at shooting guard. The Cavs also shouldn't make that trade either if they want to win now, but if they're trying to set up a post-LeBron core of Kyrie and somebody, Jimmy is a much better choice than George or Love. I don't think you can make that argument when your team just gave up almost 126 a game in the finals. Yes, there are things that Love does really well for teams, however, matching up in a wide open game is not one of them. Again though, you've got tunnel vision on defense. Everyone agrees Paul George is a better defender than Kevin Love. My point is that if the trade gets you two points a game on the defensive end and costs you two points a game on the offensive end, you haven't gotten anywhere. I think you are looking at it from the point of view that TT and another big will be on the floor for extended period of time and that Lebron will only play this one static position of SF. What this move would do is give the Cavs better roster flexability to match up with Golden State. Take a look at this past finals, There were times that Steph, Klay, Draymond, Iquodala and Durant played on the floor or instead of Iquodala they had Zaza or West. If you acquire George or Butler, this allows Cleveland to counter with a line up of Kyrie, George/Butler, JR/Korver, Lebron and TT. While still having the ability to go to a big lineup including a big like Frye (or instert other FA big here) and not having to commit to having to play Love in a situation where it is not the best match up for your team. |
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Post by eric on Jun 20, 2017 13:38:24 GMT -6
I think you are looking at it from the point of view that TT and another big will be on the floor for extended period of time and that Lebron will only play this one static position of SF. What this move would do is give the Cavs better roster flexability to match up with Golden State. Take a look at this past finals, There were times that Steph, Klay, Draymond, Iquodala and Durant played on the floor or instead of Iquodala they had Zaza or West. If you acquire George or Butler, this allows Cleveland to counter with a line up of Kyrie, George/Butler, JR/Korver, Lebron and TT. While still having the ability to go to a big lineup including a big like Frye (or instert other FA big here) and not having to commit to having to play Love in a situation where it is not the best match up for your team. We all agree George would be a better defensive option against that lineup. My question is how you determine that George isn't worse enough offensively to make him a worse option when we look at both sides of the ball together. |
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Post by SPL on Jun 20, 2017 19:02:16 GMT -6
I think you are looking at it from the point of view that TT and another big will be on the floor for extended period of time and that Lebron will only play this one static position of SF. What this move would do is give the Cavs better roster flexability to match up with Golden State. Take a look at this past finals, There were times that Steph, Klay, Draymond, Iquodala and Durant played on the floor or instead of Iquodala they had Zaza or West. If you acquire George or Butler, this allows Cleveland to counter with a line up of Kyrie, George/Butler, JR/Korver, Lebron and TT. While still having the ability to go to a big lineup including a big like Frye (or instert other FA big here) and not having to commit to having to play Love in a situation where it is not the best match up for your team. We all agree George would be a better defensive option against that lineup. My question is how you determine that George isn't worse enough offensively to make him a worse option when we look at both sides of the ball together. I feel that they are about the same efficiency offensively, that the better defense will add to their offense. Watching the finals there was so much pressure on each offensive possession of Cleveland because of the pace of the scoring. You need to do something to be able to defend that line up while still being able to play offense. Look at the match ups. pg - Steph vs Kyrie sg - Klay vs Korver/JR SF - KD vs PG13 PF - Green vs Lebron C - Zaza vs TT that just looks like a much better match up. If they want to go small, you can match up. If they want to go bigger, you can swap out Korver/JR for a big. You don't have this ability with love. |
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Post by eric on Jun 20, 2017 19:47:46 GMT -6
We all agree George would be a better defensive option against that lineup. My question is how you determine that George isn't worse enough offensively to make him a worse option when we look at both sides of the ball together. I feel that they are about the same efficiency offensively, that the better defense will add to their offense. Watching the finals there was so much pressure on each offensive possession of Cleveland because of the pace of the scoring. You need to do something to be able to defend that line up while still being able to play offense. Look at the match ups. pg - Steph vs Kyrie sg - Klay vs Korver/JR SF - KD vs PG13 PF - Green vs Lebron C - Zaza vs TT that just looks like a much better match up. If they want to go small, you can match up. If they want to go bigger, you can swap out Korver/JR for a big. You don't have this ability with love. I hear you, but Paul George verifiably isn't the same efficiency offensively. That's why Kevin Love puts up much better stats year in year out, and that's why he got so much better accolades when he was the #1 guy on a team. Defense is hard to measure, offense isn't. I'm not saying Love matches up great with the Warriors, there's no real or hypothetical lineup the Cavs can put out that's as good as the Warriors on both sides of the ball. The Warriors are just a better team, period. The question is what's the least worst option for them, and given that Love and George are about equal overall they should stick with the guy they have continuity with. |
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