Post by eric on Nov 30, 2015 17:02:29 GMT -6
Some facts, all courtesy of b-r except Wins Produced, which come from www.boxscoregeeks.com:
Kobe has one MVP, two Finals MVPs, and played on five championship teams. Only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, and Tim Duncan can say that.
Kobe has 11 All-NBA First Teams, tied with Karl Malone for most ever.
Kobe has 15 All-NBA selections total, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Tim Duncan for most ever.
Kobe will be 6th in career regular season minutes played and 3rd in playoffs, higher than all guards except Jason Kidd in the regular season.
Kobe is 3rd in career rebounds by a guard, trailing only Oscar Robertson and Jason Kidd.
Kobe is 15th in career Win Shares and 5th in Hall of Fame Probability.
Kobe is 49th in career Win Shares per 48 minutes out of 651 qualified players, and 47th out of 219 in the playoffs.
Kobe is 16th in career 3P% out of the 16 players who have taken at least 4265 three point attempts.
Kobe is 90th in career 3P% out of the 100 players to take at least 2446.
Kobe is 1st all time in field goals missed.
Kobe never led the league in Win Shares. He was never even top three.
Kobe never led the league in Wins Produced. He was never even top ten.
Did Kobe take the torch from Jordan?
The most popular player after Jordan was Vince Carter: he received the most votes for the All Star Game in four of the five years following the second retirement (2000-2004). He was also playing in Toronto all five of these years and at Kobe Bryant's position. He never won anything and wasn't close to a player of Kobe's caliber, but he was still dramatically more popular.
The most successful player after Jordan was Tim Duncan: he had two MVPs to Kobe's one, he had three Finals MVPs to Kobe's two, they are tied at five championships. He was never in Kobe's league in terms of popularity, but he was still clearly superior on the court.
Jordan was beloved in a way no player has come close to since. At his second retirement 50% of white fans said he was their favorite player, 60% of black fans. No player has topped 15% or 25% in the respective demographics since. Kobe didn't become the most popular player for white fans until after the Decision, both Allen Iverson and Shaq enjoyed runs as the most popular player for black fans before Kobe took the crown.
Is Kobe an all time great?
Can you be an all time great without ever being the greatest of a specific time?
Surely not from 1997-2002, when he wasn't even the greatest player on his own team.
Surely not from 2003-2007, when Duncan was racking up titles and Nash was racking up MVPs.
Surely not from 2011-present, when LeBron is doing both.
That leaves 2008-2010, when the Lakers went to three straight Finals... but before they traded for Pau Gasol they missed the playoffs by 11 games, got swept by Steve Nash, lost in the first round again, and were a 5 seed before Gasol pushed them to a 1 seed. Gasol's 11.1 playoff Win Shares over those three years are very close to Kobe's 11.5, Gasol generated .171 Win Shares per regular season Laker game compared to Kobe's .151, and even if we say Kobe was the greatest Laker LeBron won two MVPs in this span with a far inferior supporting cast.
Kobe is 11th in MVP shares, one of 10 men awarded two Finals MVPs (1969-present so there are at least three other members in this group), one of 31 MVP winners. None of those are top ten.
Ten men either have or we can be reasonably sure would have at least two Finals MVPs and two MVPs: LeBron, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Bird, and Kareem do. We can be reasonably sure Wilt, Russell, and Mikan would if they had been awarded in those eras, and Julius Erving had a total of two and four across both leagues. We also have to look at the other men in the one+/two+ club: Shaq, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Pettit.
Seven men have won all four major NBA awards: MVP, Finals MVP, All Star MVP, Rookie of the Year: Chamberlain, Reed, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.
Ten men have won MVP and Finals MVP in the same year: Reed, Abdul-Jabbar, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron. Mikan, Russell, and Chamberlain probably would have too.
The same names keep cropping up on these lists, and they're not Kobe.
.
Kobe has had a great career and at his peak was a very good player. That should be enough.
Kobe has one MVP, two Finals MVPs, and played on five championship teams. Only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, and Tim Duncan can say that.
Kobe has 11 All-NBA First Teams, tied with Karl Malone for most ever.
Kobe has 15 All-NBA selections total, tied with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Tim Duncan for most ever.
Kobe will be 6th in career regular season minutes played and 3rd in playoffs, higher than all guards except Jason Kidd in the regular season.
Kobe is 3rd in career rebounds by a guard, trailing only Oscar Robertson and Jason Kidd.
Kobe is 15th in career Win Shares and 5th in Hall of Fame Probability.
Kobe is 49th in career Win Shares per 48 minutes out of 651 qualified players, and 47th out of 219 in the playoffs.
Kobe is 16th in career 3P% out of the 16 players who have taken at least 4265 three point attempts.
Kobe is 90th in career 3P% out of the 100 players to take at least 2446.
Kobe is 1st all time in field goals missed.
Kobe never led the league in Win Shares. He was never even top three.
Kobe never led the league in Wins Produced. He was never even top ten.
Did Kobe take the torch from Jordan?
The most popular player after Jordan was Vince Carter: he received the most votes for the All Star Game in four of the five years following the second retirement (2000-2004). He was also playing in Toronto all five of these years and at Kobe Bryant's position. He never won anything and wasn't close to a player of Kobe's caliber, but he was still dramatically more popular.
The most successful player after Jordan was Tim Duncan: he had two MVPs to Kobe's one, he had three Finals MVPs to Kobe's two, they are tied at five championships. He was never in Kobe's league in terms of popularity, but he was still clearly superior on the court.
Jordan was beloved in a way no player has come close to since. At his second retirement 50% of white fans said he was their favorite player, 60% of black fans. No player has topped 15% or 25% in the respective demographics since. Kobe didn't become the most popular player for white fans until after the Decision, both Allen Iverson and Shaq enjoyed runs as the most popular player for black fans before Kobe took the crown.
Is Kobe an all time great?
Can you be an all time great without ever being the greatest of a specific time?
Surely not from 1997-2002, when he wasn't even the greatest player on his own team.
Surely not from 2003-2007, when Duncan was racking up titles and Nash was racking up MVPs.
Surely not from 2011-present, when LeBron is doing both.
That leaves 2008-2010, when the Lakers went to three straight Finals... but before they traded for Pau Gasol they missed the playoffs by 11 games, got swept by Steve Nash, lost in the first round again, and were a 5 seed before Gasol pushed them to a 1 seed. Gasol's 11.1 playoff Win Shares over those three years are very close to Kobe's 11.5, Gasol generated .171 Win Shares per regular season Laker game compared to Kobe's .151, and even if we say Kobe was the greatest Laker LeBron won two MVPs in this span with a far inferior supporting cast.
Kobe is 11th in MVP shares, one of 10 men awarded two Finals MVPs (1969-present so there are at least three other members in this group), one of 31 MVP winners. None of those are top ten.
Ten men either have or we can be reasonably sure would have at least two Finals MVPs and two MVPs: LeBron, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Bird, and Kareem do. We can be reasonably sure Wilt, Russell, and Mikan would if they had been awarded in those eras, and Julius Erving had a total of two and four across both leagues. We also have to look at the other men in the one+/two+ club: Shaq, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Pettit.
Seven men have won all four major NBA awards: MVP, Finals MVP, All Star MVP, Rookie of the Year: Chamberlain, Reed, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron.
Ten men have won MVP and Finals MVP in the same year: Reed, Abdul-Jabbar, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron. Mikan, Russell, and Chamberlain probably would have too.
The same names keep cropping up on these lists, and they're not Kobe.
.
Kobe has had a great career and at his peak was a very good player. That should be enough.
